SJ41 Vs SJ43

[Mark Harris]

Oh me, oh my  . That was really not well put Sam.

Brandon, what are your preferences for Baker rig hooks (and killing many birds with one stone, tail hooks and front assists)?

I guess by the time the end of next year arrives, I will have to force myself to get into rigging GT lures with bloody singles  and I guess and genuinely need to start getting to grips with this fangled way of rigging.

[Sam Morrison]

C'mon Brandon,

I never questioned your knowledge, I stated you have your own preference in hook/size that has come from your experience fishing.

Ben just wants to rig up some single's, surely in his case any of these hooks in the larger sizes for a tail took is better than none?

yep, I really have no idea what I am talking about

What do you recommend Brendon for 'Baker Rigs'?

Ben,

Use the 41's for the belly hooks on a baker rig, they work well. As for the tail hook use whatever you have Jobu's, SJ41's, SJ43's... Brandon has his own preference and experience. So choose either hook that suits the lure and put it on and go for it...

Remember fishing is something so simple, that we make so complicated, only to realise how simple it is. 

[Brandon Khoo]

To me, the baker/single hook combination is a compromise that has been developed primarily to meet Nomad's hook policy. The baker was developed by Tim Baker on my first trip to Shoalwater (hence the name). I have been told that this rig has been used in other places previously but as Tim worked it out on that trip, I named it after him.

The problem is that GT lures (excepting Fullscales) are not designed to be rigged this way. You will find that many Japanese manufacturers even tell you what hook to use on the lures. It took us ages to get the balance right on the Fullscale so it would swim properly with the baker/single combination but we also wanted it to work well with trebles. I even got myself confused because some weightings worked better in different conditions.  . In the end, we went with what we felt was the best all-round compromise.

With Carpenter, we are testing primarily with trebles and you would be surprised at the difference based on different hooks. If you want to try this, rig the same popper or floating stickbait up with just ST-66 then ST-76 then Decoys and see the difference.

Coming back on topic, I use either Owner OC in size 35 or 40 or Owner SJ41s in 11/0 or 13/0. For singles, I use either Fisherman Shiden 13/0, Shout Kudako 7/0s, Owner OC40, Owner SJ51 or Decoy Cutlass 10/0. If I am going to be perfectly honest, I don't particularly like using the baker/single combination as I prefer trebles. I don't feel this combination compromises poppers or sinking stickbaits too much but it does horrible things to floating stickbaits like the Gamma in terms of the balance of the lure. For stickbaits too, I tend to use the thinnest guage hook I can because the stickbait rod has a softer tip which really isn't suitable for driving home the heavy guage hooks like the OC.

The primary consideration with your hook is the weight (for balancing purposes) and the clearance (for hook-up purposes). Get the first wrong and the lure won't swim properly. In the case of a popper, the lure may sink or get pulled out of the water too easily and in the case of a floating stickbait, it may stuff the action up completely. Get the second wrong and you will suffer in terms of hook-ups. Having too small a hook for a particular lure will not see enough hook clearance. I actually think that for the tail hook, a bit more clearance from the lure is desirable. I have started using two split rings to get a bit more clearance from the lure.

Ar the end of the day, Sam is right to a degree. You can use any hook - if you don't care how your lures swim or on getting enough hook clearance. If you want optimal performance from your lure and in your hook-up rate, you should spend some time on getting this right. The best analogy I can give are the tyres on your car.

Sam, I did overreact to a statement that did not have the intent I chose to read into it. The problem here though is that Luke and I are fighting an increasingly losing battle against what we often perceive to be poor advice that is written with the best of intentions. Also, as a budding lure-maker, I would strongly suggest to you that hook combinations are a critical aspect of your trade.

[Ben Rivers]

All things considered, I'm going to stick with Trebles as the primary, and have a few sets of singles for an alternative.

[Carl Hollis]

I've been experimenting with the singles, mostly SJ41's "Bakered" and Decoy Sergeant singles, on smaller lures for Kings. This originally started out due to a session that a mate and I had where we wanted to catch and release, however realised the trebles were causing havoc on a lot more fish then we wanted from either mangled jaws or gutsing the trebs down deep.

I now run Bakered SJ41's on poppers and pencils and a single Decoy Sergeant on the back (Ben - I have used SJ41's on the back in the past but prefer the in-line Decoy). I've found that hook-ups on these lures occur mostly around the belly ie the fish actively hits the lure from below or side-on behind the lure head. Solid hook-ups occur and I can't say that I've noticed a decrease in success versus a treble set-up - and they're easy to release if you need to.

For floating and sinking stickbaits I always run a treble on the belly and retain a single Decoy on the back. I strongly agree with previous sentiments re trebles for stickbaits - it effectively acts as a keel that stabilses the stickbait through it's swim action. From my experience only, the single on the back doesn't have as dramatic effect on lure stability however this is very debatable pending the lure used. I can say, again only from my experience, that more oft than not shy Sydney Kings tend to "sneak-up" on stickbaits on the pause, have a good look and then "nibble" the tail of the lure. A squid skirt or other bling tied to the single hook tail has proven very effective for solid hook-ups where otherwise there might have been an enquiry and no nibble = no hook-up.

The great thing about fishing and its continuous learning curve is that you need to know your area, the water, the bait, and the fish in order to observe, adapt and get results. This is a great thread and its been good to get others perspectives.

Below are a quick pic of lures that have produced results from my mad methodology. Over time this may change, but for now it works well.

[Mark Harris]

Brandon, that is a wonderfully complete and knowledgeable reply - thank you very much.

In light of your comments, already making a few plans in my mind for single hook combos for different lures. I can't see myself switching to using singles except where I am forced to do so by the charter operator, but nonetheless I must get to grips with this subject.

Thanks again.

[Karl Nelson]

Jobu's are a unreliable hook aren't they? Renowned for straighting out compared to other hooks.

[Mark Harris]

Are they Karl?  I had no idea of that.   

Looking at a big Jobu I would have thought snapping was more likely than straightening. Do you have any references for this?

[Jay Burgess]

Are they Karl?  I had no idea of that.   

Looking at a big Jobu I would have thought snapping was more likely than straightening. Do you have any references for this?

I think there were a few instances of this happening but I didn't think it was that common.

[Brandon Khoo]

Karl, I believe this is one of those urban legends that take on a life of their own. A few years back, the was a batch of 8/0s that snapped well below what our normal expectations would be. This is the only instance of problems with Jobus that I am aware of. For the past many years, the 9/0s and 10/0s have been the preferred hook for Nomad.

Of course, there have been of examples of even 9/0s being compromised by massive GTs or doggies but examples of this are very rare. The reality is that over the years, I have seen most hooks compromised. This includes every trebles on the market (including Recorder 8/0s) and huge singles such as Decoy Cutlass 10/0s. In fact, Decoy had one bad batch that really hurt their reputation. Owner had the same with a batch of SJ41 11/0s but they have bene pretty good since.

The only hooks I have not seen open up are Owner SJ51s and OCs. Pat Victorino uses Owner Super Kues which I reckon it would take an orca to straighten out!

[Mark Harris]

A bad batch of Jobus snapping makes more sense than them straightening.  Thanks for the clarification on that.

[Karl Nelson]

Are they Karl?  I had no idea of that.   

Looking at a big Jobu I would have thought snapping was more likely than straightening. Do you have any references for this?

I have only heard a few cases of these straightening, one was first hand.
I would also think it to be more likely to snap one before it straightened.
But as we know, all gear is compromised sometimes.
As Brandon said its more of a urban legend.

[Andre van Wyk]

Pat Victorino uses Owner Super Kues which I reckon it would take an orca to straighten out!

Was not familiar with these hooks at all, never heard of them, but just Googled them.... Buddha's Belly those are some SERIOUS hooks.... agree with you there Brandon, definitely look like Orca fishing hooks.... Anyone keen to build up a Baby Seal Stickbait for my next trip to Canada???  Crusty? 

Will try not give poor advice here, as my experience is limited compared to most.... But I have certainly found that some baits are far more fickle when it comes to hook size and style than others, as has been mentioned in previous posts... and I'm not only talking about the difference between poppers and stickbaits, but rather between brands as well...

As would be expected, the "high perfromance" models like your Gamma's etc, are very particular as to what works with them, to get optimum performance.... much like a high end sports car... get it right and its a thing of beauty, and you suddenly think of yourself as the new Konishi-San when you swimming that lure ( well I do anyway!  )... but get it wrong, and you are in for a long frustrating afternoon pulling your hair out and cursing every forum who convinced you to spend crazy amounts of your hard earned money on these lures that don't swim properly!!! 

I've found the most "Idiot Friendly" ( yes that includes me! ) range of lures with regards to hook size/style and angler skill to be the Heru range, the stickbaits especially... these lures are incredibly forgiving in my opinion, as they hadle a wide rnage of hook sizes and configurations without too much trouble, and are pretty easy to work all round.....

That being said, I enjoy nothing more than figuring out the right combos for my high end lures ( Buddha knows I've got enough of them!! ), and working out what works on each one ( of course with alot of help from reading through this forum so I've at least got a starting point ), and there is nothing more satisfying than getting the set up right, and watching it all come together...

I tend to prefer trebles for the most part, partly because they seem to make all stickbaits swim better, and also because they look so damn frikken cool! 

Probably not added much uselful info to this thread, sorry for the sidetrack.... but I do really agree with Brandon in that hook selection is critical, and can make or break a lure.... so time spent getting it right is definitely worth your while...