Treble debate

[Chris Young]

 Thought I'd start a thread on the issue of Nomad phasing out the use of trebles on their boats.
 I personally like the idea, but how will it affect the way you rig your lures ?, & will you still use trebles elsware or will you follow the trend & phase them out alltogether ?

Cheers Chris

[Jon Li]

Hi Chris ,

The idea has been tried in Komodo but with a bit more leeway ; single hooks on the belly n the tail or 1 pc. of treble on the belly and swivel blade on the tail but these are only a suggestion which are not enforced .

With 1 pc. of treble on the belly we do get very few damage to the fish from swinging treble on the tail while with single hooks on the belly n the tail , we still get very few damage to the fish so in my opinion , 1 pc. of treble on the belly + swivel blade on the tail certainly work for most chugger but may not work for stickbait n pencil poppers .

It's a free world and there is no way of enforcing this in other places , NOMAD may have the autonomy to do so on their charter but won't have any control over other charter but what they are trying to is worthwhile to be given consideration in the future for others to follow .

Jon .

[Brandon Khoo]

Chris, Nomad have over the years formed some quite definitive conclusions and whether you agree with them or not, they firmly believe them. They have far more experience than most of us doing this for a large part of the year so you have to respect their opinion.

• trebles do more damage to the fish - especially if the fish is unfortunate enough to get hooked with both sets because what results is that one set will almost certainly tear out damaging the fish in the process. Also, the treble in the jaw does more damage than a single hook
• once hooked, single hooks have a better retention rate

As I wrote, it is up to individuals as to what they believe but Nomad are doing this primarily for the sake of the the fish. After all, if you want to catch and release, there is no point if you are going to significantly damage the fish thus reducing its likelihood of survival. The simple reality though is that after this year, if you want to go out on a Nomad charter, you will need to comply with their rules. They are doing it for the right reasons.

Personally, I think it is a good thing. I cannot deny that based on my experience, trebles do more damage. I also firmly believe that when hooked, singles have a better retention rate. That said, I also believe that trebles have a better hookup rate, especially with pencil poppers.

In terms of what impact it will have on the way I rig, I'd say minimal. As it is, I already primarily rig with singles off the tail (except with pencil poppers) and a Baker rig off the belly. I really have developed a lot of faith in the Baker rig as have some of the people I fish with. I beleive it has the hookup rate of a treble and the retention rate of a single so it provides the best of both worlds.

Have I changed completely, well, probably not as I will probably still use some trebles but this will be in the minority. There are lures where I think I still prefer trebles on. I will still use trebles on pencil poppers and there are some poppers I think I will still use a big treble on the belly when I am not fishing with Nomad. These include the Ebipop 140 which works well with a Decoy 10/0, the Fisherman Bignouth HP 220 which works well with a Gamakatsu Recorder 8/0 and I still prefer the Cubera 125 with a Owner ST-76 5/0. All of that said, I will have singles off the tail on all my poppers and I can substitute Bakers without too much trouble.

[Greg Burt]

In testing the rigs I find a tail spinner blade kills any action in a stickbait, and some stickbaits can be a bit 'flighty' without a belly treble because of the extra resistance and centre weight, although to large hooks in the baker rig do help.
 Poppers seem to loose little especially short poppers and a tail spinner blade.

Pic from Brandons archives

[Sam Beeby]

Brandon,  Why do you use tebles still on pencils - is it for a better hook up rate at speed or because it helps the lure stay attached to the surface better?

[Brandon Khoo]

Sam, a couple of reasons.
I find that the action is better in the way it keeps the tail down and I feel like trebles work well at speed where the fish tend to take the popper from the tail. Just my perceptions based on my experience. Others may have a different view.

[Kasey Leong]

What about lure balancing?

I think someone mentioned that certain poppers were tested with trebles, and are meant to be rigged that way. I have noticed a difference between using trebles and singles, particularly if they are big trebles (eg decoy 10/0s) in the way the popper sits in the water.

[Chris Young]

Thats a good point Kasey, A lot of lures are set up to accomodate the extra weight of large trebles, some of which weigh 25g each with a split ring. You can of course baker rig off the belly with the same weight but in some instances the hooks need to be so large they may hang up on the lure body. (like a jig hook does if it's too large)
Greg&Jon, Spinner blade off the back has its merrits for stability etc but what about trajectory? without the extra weight of the treble it was designed to carry some of these things might cast like a gum leaf.
A lot of these lures have been designed to cope with a given weight which includes trebles ,taking an 8/0 treble off the back of a lure is almost equal to removing the counterbalance on the tail altogether

Chris

[Jon Li]

Chris ,

With chugger weighing less than 100 gr. there may be problem when it is heavy at the front , this may cause the lure to tumble in the air while being cast but for heavier popper 100 gr. and above , the tumbling will be minimum .

As for swivel blade at the tail , one need not use too big a swivel blade . For Cubera 125 the swivel blade should be just the size of one's thumb nail . The swivel blade turning like propeller in the water tend to hold the chugger from cartwheeling .

For stickbait , the absence of treble on the belly does make it slide in the water faster such as in Wahoo , that is why Ulua was created to give a little " feel " to the stickbait when twitched , one needs to use a sensitive rod for this . Swivel blade at the tail will not work on stickbait so don't bother using it , stick to a single hook with the gape larger than the cross section of the tail of the stickbait .

For some pencil popper longer than 200mm overall , the belly hook is not much use . I would rather just arm the tail with a barbless treble of a single hook with big gape .

Jon .   

[Brandon Khoo]

I've found that stickbaits like the Ulua and Wahoo work better with a single or Baker than they do with a treble. You seem to get a better shimmer on them and as Jon wrote, they get throught the water better.

I also agree with his views on the pencil popper. I find the hook of the belly almost extraneous in that the very large majority are hooked on tha tail - but conversely to a stickbait, I feel the treble is important for the pencil's action

[Chris Young]

In some cases I think the belly hook is only there to act as a keel of sorts, to stop the lure from spinning.