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Topwater Caranx Ignobilis: Giant Trevally (GT) => Tackle & Techniques => Topic started by: Peter Olesen on June 16, 2012, 12:22:00 AM
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Hi Guys
Yet another "versus post" ::)
Has anyone tried both lines? How do they compare regarding:
1) Diameter
2) Casting distance
3) Overall strength
4) Resistance against shock load
I have been satisfied with the JB Solid 130 during my last two trips but what could I gain spending a lot more dollars on the Varivas?
Thanks in advance,
Peter
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Hej Peter,
I have thought about the same question when preparing for my trip to Oman. I thought the Varivas was thinner though. How much JB solid 130 do you get on a 18000/DF 6500?
/Jonas
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Hi Jonas
I have JB Solid 130 on a 20000 spool. I haven't measured but I THINK around 250 meters on that spool.
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Hi Peter,
I had the chance to use both lines for the past 4 years,
per comparison and in my opinion the JB is by far one of the best line i had ever used for GT fishing.
my spool have a 130lb JB and i had not changed that line for the past 4 years, so far i landed many big fishes with locked drag and that is the only line that never broke on me.
the distance is not likely to be achieved to a solid PE line but i try to use it with 160g lures and heavier.
the 130JB is my go line when it comes to GT fishing.
Tight lines
Sami
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Hi Sami,
Are you using the solid or hollow JB? I might have misunderstood your comparasion to "solid PE" when talking casting distance. Another question - are you too using a 20000 spool for the JB and do you have any idea about capacity?
/Jonas
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Hey Peter, on my last trip i ran 100lb JB solid and varivas pe 8 smp, i felt the 100jb fell in between pe 8 and pe 10 in terms of diameter, going by this i would say that 130lb JB would be more comparitable with pe 12 in diameter. The only difference in terms of performance i feel is that the varivas casts fractionally better than the JB. JB solid is brilliant line and i probably wont be using anything else in the future when you consider the price difference between the 2 brands.
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You would have thought JB would publish the diameters of their lines somewhere. Anyone ever seen this information?
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That's great info tony.
For this comparison, Varivas GT Avani Max PE10 is 130lb (you cannot use PE x 10 to get poundage for these lines). Therefore Varivas PE10 = JB solid 130 lb and the JB is a bit thicker.
If the comparison was Varivas PE8, then it needs to JB solid 100lb as the equivalent which is also thicker.
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That's great info tony.
Therefore Varivas PE10 = JB solid 130 lb and the JB is a bit thicker.
I would have probably said that differently... I think it's more practical to compare lines by diamieter so I would have said Varivas PE10 = JB solid 100lb (PE10) and the JB is a bit weaker (for the same diameter).
Edit: Sorry Mark, just noticed the original comparison in the thread title was between Varivas PE10 and JB 130 ;D
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However for PE8 V's 80lb JB. They both test at 100lb. JB is thinner
Also I haven't heard of any shock load issues with the JB like some PE lines.
Inevitably, that depends on the nature of the test. I would prefer to use the manufacturer's stated poundage (for reputable manufacturers like these two at least). On that basis, for JB Solid 80lb the Varivas Avani GT Max equivalent is PE7.
Line thicknesses are very important to me when GT fishing - the lighter the better relative to the shock load and straight line breaking capabilities.
I do by the way, really like JB solid... just not quite as much as I like GT Max. If you take price into account though, choosing JB makes a lot of sense.
And as you say, unlike certain other big profile Spectra lines, it does not have a rep of exploding under shock.
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So JB say their 80lb line = 100 lbs test?
That is very confusing.
If they thought their 80lb line was really 100 lb line, they would surely not bother making a thicker 100lb line?
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Hi Sami,
Are you using the solid or hollow JB? I might have misunderstood your comparasion to "solid PE" when talking casting distance. Another question - are you too using a 20000 spool for the JB and do you have any idea about capacity?
/Jonas
Hi Jonas,
I am using the hollow JB, the hollow line won't achieve the same casting distance as a Japanese solid PE line because it is basically flat, allowing resistance to cut through the air while casting and that is the reason i use the heavier lures when casting with the JB hollow line.
i have the line on my 2002 Stella SW10000 model with a 20000 spool and i have approximately close to 270 or 280 meter.
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Hi Sami,
Thanks for your answer, that makes sense. What are your thoughts on solid vs. hollow - besides the obvious benifits of "no knot"? Also do you know the difference in diameter between solid and hollow, or is the hollow basically too "flat" to talk about diameter? Sorry if these questions sound stupid, but I have only used JB once - the solid version in 50 lbs on a much lighter reel. Living in Sweden makes it hard to actually see this stuff before buying it...
/Jonas
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Thanks for the replies!
Tony: from where did you get the diameters of the jb lines?
Jonas: I have both jb hollow and solid in 130 lbs. Of the spool, the solid actually seems a bit more flat but the diameters looks like they are close to even. But I'm sure the hollow will flatten more out during use. The tag end of the hollow is very flat compared to the tag end of the solid. I have not fished the hollow.
By the way, the jb solid can also be spliced (at least in 100 and 130 lbs). The 130 lbs is fairly easy to splice while the 100 lbs requires a bit more patience!
Can anyone compare casting distance first hand between jb solid 130 and varivas pe10?
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If they thought their 80lb line was really 100 lb line, they would surely not bother making a thicker 100lb line?
It is so much worse than that. Their white 16 carrier 80lb hollow has an ABS 114-140lb, but the white 100lb 12 carrier has an ABS of around 112lb-117lb.
WTF?
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i am after some jb 130lb solid where is the best place to buy some from ,i am in Australia but happy to buy from overseas as jb is hard to find here and also a lot cheaper overseas
thanks
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I just ordered some from Tackle Direct in the U.S.
www.tackledirect.com
Apologies for not posting a proper link but I'm IT illiterate - you should find it from the above info tho'
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Guy's
Some interesting reading here http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/4linetesting.htm (http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/4linetesting.htm)
I just got some of the 85lb (test 116) to try http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/catalog.htm#1 (http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/catalog.htm#1) ...arrived last week haven't spooled it yet but will let you know...
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I just ordered some from Tackle Direct in the U.S.
www.tackledirect.com
Apologies for not posting a proper link but I'm IT illiterate - you should find it from the above info tho'
thanks oRdered some from them today!
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As always great info Clem...Let us know how it turns out as it looks like great line.
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What have you ended up doing? My judgement is pretty useless as i have not used the JB but what i can vouch for is the PE 10 GT Avanti. I have this on my Stella .. can cast it a mile, really smooth and locked up some very big fish with no issues, its a great line.
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Hey Ed
I haven't done anything yet. I'm sure they are both strong - my only concern is: which one casts longer. I'm waiting to get a chance to compare the two lines with my eyes. But Japanese high end tackle for huge fish is not something we see everyday in Scandinavia. I think I'm gonna have to order some Avani GT Max to take a look :)
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Hi Guys
Just a little info.
The Varivas 130lb sample sent to me was listed as a Pe10 (0.570mm) measured diam was 0.672mm with a bs of 137.23lb.
The JB 130lb solid is very similar to the 130lb hollow, its bs is at 167lb (0.651mm) to 193lb (0.697mm) it's but much stronger than the Varivas but similar in diameter.
I can only make this assumption because i have tested the 100lb solid, and it is a little thinner than the hollow.
A good batch of JB 100lb hollow or solid would be a match for the Varivas 130lb and would be a lot thinner.
When you look at Dyneema verses Spectra, which in this case it is what this is, if you have similar measured diameters, I generally find that the spectra is stronger, guess it depends on the class of Dyneema that is / was used.
Some recent tests on 40lb hollow braids, similar lines show that Dyneema Sk71 can be as strong as Spectra 1000.
Don't forget that the after braiding treatments plays a large part in the final diameter and breaking strain.
Note,,, Manufacturers listed diameters are seldom correct, don't believe what is listed or written on the box.
Paulus
http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/index.htm
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Paulus, when you are doing your tests do you apply slow even pressure until the line fails or do you apply a sudden violent pull?
I don't dispute lab results and find them very useful for side by side comparison but actual everyday use and environmental factors also play a huge effect on line.
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Yep, shock load is an absolutely critical factor for GT fishing (along with other things).
In the end, whether a line breaks in a straight line under pressure at 140 lbs or 160 lbs does not really matter as your rod or reel or arms will have given way long before that.
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Well said Mark, although the heavy line has the advantage of a little better abrasion resistance.
(Just before you get pulled overboard) :o
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Paulus, when you are doing your tests do you apply slow even pressure until the line fails or do you apply a sudden violent pull?
I don't dispute lab results and find them very useful for side by side comparison but actual everyday use and environmental factors also play a huge effect on line.
Hi Guys
The tests are a carried out at a preset rate to give a steady pull, this is for comparison bs purposes, the most critical part of the test is the way the line is held.
Temperature plays a part in the braids strength, tested at 22deg +/- 1 deg. Cooler is stronger and hotter is weaker, on a very hot spool or a hot runner (guide) you may loose up to 20% of abs.
Knots to a terminal should never be used, as you may get if lucky 60% most likely 50%, with a shock load even less.
A strong violent pull on a 0.5 meter length is very different to a voilent pull on a 50 meter length
These braided lines do have a 3 to 4% stretch, braided with more pics per inch will give it more stretch and less strength, Shock leaders are your best friend.
Do not rely on drag settings as they do not dampen the shock load, as the start up enertia is greater than the set load.
Braid to leader joins, nothing beats solid to hollow topshot with a leader inserted, have a look at the Pullon system and learn how to make them.
Biminis, generally 86% if you are good, but then bimini to bimini (loop to loop) one time through is not 100%.
Braid to leader, anything that has a slow spiral down the leader is good, avoid twists in the braid line in a knot, or it will definately fail.
Braid join, solid to solid braid ....... stitch it, as thats the strongest... Never Uni to Uni, emergency only, then stitch it when you get home.
Paulus
http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/4linetesting.htm
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Hi paulus,
You say not to use knots as your connection to terminals. Is crimping to your swivel a stronger connection?
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Hi paulus,
You say not to use knots as your connection to terminals. Is crimping to your swivel a stronger connection?
Hi
Guess i meant braid to terminal,,, but while we are on it,,,
Crimps can be stronger when they are done right, but with plastic lines knots also do well.
It's a toss up as to weather you have an extreemly strong system all the way to the hook, or you have a fuse built in.
With a braid to leader knot it generally becomes the fuse as it will break at that join, unless you have a week spot further up in the main line, but you generally only loose the leader.
With a solid to hollow splice that is exceptionally strong you can loose a lot of line as well as the leader. So a poor knot from the leader to the terminal / lure is not such a bad idea. Also depends on how much time you want to loose attaching leaders.
On the point of crimping,,, I spent a lot of time on this and a few critical points have come out of it.
A flemish eye in the leader on the terminal works and holds the best,,, use only aluminium crimps on plastic lines,,, the line must be very snug in the crimp,,, the crimping tool must suit the crimp,,, stay at least 1.25mm away from the ends of the crimp so they flare,,, try 2 passes,,, do not over crimp. The flemish eye will lock up on the eyelet and do most of the work. At the end of the day test what you have done.
Paulus
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The Varivas 130lb sample sent to me was listed as a Pe10 (0.570mm) measured diam was 0.672mm with a bs of 137.23lb.
The JB 130lb solid is very similar to the 130lb hollow, its bs is at 167lb (0.651mm) to 193lb (0.697mm) it's but much stronger than the Varivas but similar in diameter.
Paulus,
That's a very interesting information and I never met such comparison anywhere else. Thank you for posting.
I got to your site and found loads of interesting info there.
But how do you measure braided lines diameter? they are soft and and not "round" in cross section, so to know your method would be very interesting...
And I never saw japanese makers specify diameter for their PE (at least on the domestic market), so I was surprised to read that "Varivas Sample was listed 0.57mm"...
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I am also wondering how you measure diameter of something that is intrinsically not a firm circle in cross section? Interesting one that!
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And I think that the diameter is changed after PE is submerged into water. So, in working condition it might be different to dry condition. I wonder if this change differs much between Dyneema and spectra and if we can compare spectra and dyneema dry without being wrong about their diameters in working (wet) condition?
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Thinking about my previous post, I came to thought that PE is a material which does not absorb water, so ots diameter must be the same in both dry and wet condition.... what about spectra? does it absorb water? I am not aquainted with this material....
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I am also wondering how you measure diameter of something that is intrinsically not a firm circle in cross section? Interesting one that!
Hi
It's measured with a low pressure digital indicator, first on the flat, then spiral wound up to 10 times per inch, until the width has become sufficient to provide a second measurement. The two measurements are then averaged. I have cross checked this with a microscope to verify that the system is close to actual, but a lot faster to do.
Keep in mind that all the lines are measured in the same manor, so comparisons can be made between them.
The Pe fiber itself does not hold water, but the gaps between them does, this situation is minimized if the braid has had after treatments, to reduce it's overall size, and compress it, one way of putting it it's like combing your hair and setting it i guess. Only a few braider's do this.
a worn braid will hold more water than a new braid, as does more pics per inch hold more, a poor quality dyneema line will hold more.
The Pe number system is of little benefit as its a total unknown number, but it allows a manufacturer to drop a line into a group, like its between this and that, but if you are bending the truth a little (some more than others) then its dropped into the next group, as that line has a bs of X and is expected to be X in diameter.
Paulus
http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/4linetesting.htm
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Paulus,
What about Spectra? Does it hold water? or it is similiar to Dyneema in this?
About number specification of PE used in Japan
It is quite definite number, I think. At least, as far as it concerns known japanese makers starting from December 2010. There was a convention among line makers about PE which fixed rules of PE specification. They fixed that the certain number of PE must be equal to certain weight of the line in Denier units. 1 Denier equals to the case when 9000m of the material weighs 1g. If we transfer to grams, 9000m of PE6 must weigh 1080g, PE8 - 1440g, PE10 - 1800g. But the problem for us, users, remained unchanged. What's the point in knowing the line weight for a certain length, in case we still do not understand the actual diameter of PE to compare it between makers? May be, knowing the length, specific weight of the PE material and the actual weight of the length some specialistsl can calculate diameter somehow (not me), but I think it is still not clear for final user...
In approximately the same time they also fixed relation of the line number and its actual diameter in mm for nylon and flurocarbon lines. After that it must become more clear for the users. For example, #10 for nylon or fluorocarbon must be 0,52mm in dia for any maker and for both nylon and flurocarbon. I wish they made some similiar system for PE, but it must be very difficult due to the specific nature of PE material... So, such information which is placed on your site, Paulus, (actually measured diameters) is an absolute gold for anglers, I think. Thank you!
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Hi Dmitrii
The Spectra and the Dyneema material are similar in make up, In fishing line when Spectra is used its a known number, like the 1000 series, when Dyneema is used they seldom tell you what series is used, and you have many forms of it. One indicator is diameter verses breaking strain, that is why I always measure it.
The water holding capabilities of fishing line also comes from the number of strands in the line, 8 strand lines blend in very well together and pack tight, 6 strand lines are not to bad but with 4 strands it becomes ropey. If you use a poorer quality fiber then it is thicker for a given bs so holds more water.
It's more the after treatments of a braided line that reduces the water holding capabilities of a line as it blends the fibers into each other.
Also coatings can play a part, some reduce water holding capabilities others can increase it.
I think you need to look at each line and access it.
Here are two lines you can see the difference between a good line and a poorer line.
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t154/Paulusvg/bim5.jpg
The PE number system will never work, as far as quoting mono equivalents also does not work, stating that lines are thin sells lines even if they are not.
You also need to take into account that what is written on the box may not be what is wound on the spool.
Paulus
http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/4linetesting.htm