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Topwater Caranx Ignobilis: Giant Trevally (GT) => Tackle & Techniques => Topic started by: Tosh Auer on November 06, 2012, 05:30:29 PM
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Hi guys,
This is my first post here so bear with me if this has been covered before. I have been reading through alot of past threads in relation to leaders and i am confused on a lot of people's leader setups. I am relatively new to popping and dont understand why so many people have 10' - 20' of leader/ twisted leader/ shock leader/ wind on whatever it happens to be. I cant think of anything worse then casting knots and wind on connections through your guides all day. I understand the need for a leader as a shock absorber and less visible to fish etc. Am i missing something?? As i said i am relatively new to this so please excuse any stupidity in this question.
Thanks in advance
Tosh
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Tosh, I would suggest you keep it very simple as many GT anglers do. A single strand nylon shock leader leader of about 3 metres attached to your braided mainline via a knot such as FG, PR or Mid.
Fishing does not get much simpler than that.
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Just as Mark said...
Some don't mind a knot traveling through the guides...some do (like me). I run a relatively short leader for this reason, there are just the usual pro's and con's to doing that.
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There are a myriad of different approaches to leaders out there and some are much more complex than others. I suppose it is very much a case of each to their own and what you are happy with. There is no right approach. The approach you are referring to comprises of hollow braid whereby the connection of the mainline to the heavier length of hollow braid is seamless before it is connected to a mono leader. It is actually a pretty smooth connection. I don't use it myself but I know people who do.
There are other very complex systems out there, some of which is my view have been developed for no other purpose than for the sake of individuality. To some celebrity Japanese anglers, that is important.
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Hi Tosh, I think it is a big case of what you are confident in and what works for you. As fisherman we all have some strange superstitions and habits and this also goes to tackle set ups, gear etc. For me I use a very simple set up which is a short heavy leader that the knot sits outside the guides and I use a bimini in the braid and a yucatan knot to join the leader to the braid. Very simple and can tie it in about 2 minutes on the boat if I get smashed up. This has worked for me for the last 5 years and landed a lot of fish, but good friends I fish with often use other set ups so we always go back and forth with pros and cons and as Brandon said there is no right or wrong. I have a lot of reasons why I use it but for me it works for others it won't. Try a few and see what you like and lets you land decent fish!
Cheers,
Nick
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Hi Guys,
Thanks very much for your replies. I am relatively new to popping compared to a lot on this forum(a handful of oversea's trips fiji, indo, vanuatu etc. and a bit of stuff around 1770 near where i live. I also dont have the budget for carpenter rods and stella's or saltiga's. I am running an Shimano Saragosa 18000F on a Daiwa Monster Mesh Max popping stick and generally like keeping things simple. Until now i have used a very simple leader setup similar to Nick's. Is there a minimum to leader lengths other than if to short fish will see your mainline. For me about 4 foot of heavy leader which remains out the guides has been my weapon of choice.
Thanks for all the advice.
Tosh
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I think I like Nicks idea about keeping it simple and being able to quickly tie in the boat.I come from a Jigging background and have lots of faith in my biminis,also like the idea of the double braid as a shock absorber.anyone have any idea on the gt knot compared to the Yucatan as far as strength is concerned?
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Tosh and Adam,
You will find many different views on this. Just find a method that you are comfortable with.
Nick's setup with a short leader which is cast with the leader outside the tip guide is something that clearly works well for him.
Others will tell you that a 3 metre leader cast through the guides is their method.
Try both and see which you prefer. Both are simple set-ups. Rigging for GT Popping is not a complex issue.
Knot-wise, you should learn to tie least one slim friction knot which allows you to try the long leader option. Personally I find FG knots the easiest and no tools are required. Others will swear by the PR knot which requires a bobbin. Some use the mid-knot. All 3 are extremely reliable once you know how to tie them. For the short leader option, there are many knot solutions.
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Knot clearance, added stretch to the system to avoid the braid breaking from the strike or bending trebles/single hooks, disassociation of the braid from the lure and the advantage of having something that can take the punishment of the GT's teeth and tail scutes.........these are questions that need to be addressed when looking for a leader system IMO.
Out of desperation on a NOMAD trip in March 2001, I devised the twisted leader system for GT's.
It is just a beefed up version of castable wind-on leaders that Rod Harrison made popular in the early 00's.
I was sick of wrecking guide inserts and guide frames from the large knots that we were trying to use.
I could tie a Bimini. I could do a catspaw, so with this in mind, I twisted up heavier leader material to make a castable wind-on leader that had small connections.
Back then, it was all popper fishing as stickbaits had yet to come into this country, so the heavy twisted leader didn't really put any fish off in the rough water spots we liked to pop.
Surge forward 10 years and I'd prefer a single strand leader connected via a friction knot.
This allows for stretchy shock leader to still be employed for it's stretch, though the single strand also allows for a stealthier presentation when using poppers or stick baits.
Whatever system you choose, just learn to tie the knot/s very well!
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As stated, everyone has their ideal method. I have several different setups that I use for different methods, lures and terrain.
What really has to hit home is what Aaron mentioned, find a knot you can tie well that won't fail unless it's pushed beyond it's capacity. User-error when tying a knot is not only humiliating but it could cost you a fish of a life-time - including up to $200.00 in GT hardware and other intangible costs!
Tie it well, throw it 60m plus and you are in the game.
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Tie it well, throw it 60m plus and you are in the game.
Love that. A perfect, concise summary of what to do to catch a GT :)
One great thing about GT fishing is that you really only need to master 2 fairly simple knots: braid to leader and leader to terminals or lure. So learn to tie (for example) an FG knot and a four turn uni knot, and it's game-on.
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Rock,
I echo Mark's sentiments on your "tie well,throw it 60m plus and you are in the game" comment.........very well put indeed mate.
As a bit of a closet "knot-ologist" I try and learn every knot going.
Having said that, certain knots I can certainly tie more quickly with no error...........those are the ones that are GOLD when out in sloppy conditions and you've got to re-rig.
Anyone can tie a perfect knot with time, space and a few extra hands to help on dry land.
Try getting help to tie any knot out at sea when the bite is on.
It ain't going to happen!
So, to reaffirm, fart around with a bunch of leader and knot setups (most preferable BEFORE the big trip!!) to see what works for you and learn those handful of knots REALLY well!
Aaron.
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Thanks very much guys for all the help. I think I'm going to trial an fg knot to about 3-4 metres of shock leader and see how I feel about casting it through guides after my upcoming trip to Vanuatu.
Thanks again
Tosh
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Thanks very much guys for all the help. I think I'm going to trial an fg knot to about 3-4 metres of shock leader and see how I feel about casting it through guides after my upcoming trip to Vanuatu.
Thanks again
Tosh
Unless you are fishing under several metres of water in depth, might I suggest you start with a leader no longer than 2 metres. I think this will provide you a compromise and will help you cast most effectively.
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Will experiment with a few different lengths and compare to my standard 3-4 foot leader remaining outside my guides.
Cheers
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What size leader do you think you could go to before you start to retard the action of your poppers? 300lb?
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What size leader do you think you could go to before you start to retard the action of your poppers? 300lb?
Casting distance wud be greatly reduced when using such a thick leader . For big chugger , such thick leader may not affect the action much .
Jon .
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Huge fun trying to knot it as well! ;D
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I can't get any knot outside of a nail knot to bite with really heavy mono.
Any other suggestions?
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Brandon
I personally use much lighter flurocarbon (200lb) with an improved clinch knot. However, I know Nick Bowles uses the same knot successfully with 300lb mono.
Regards,
Trevor
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Nail knot is the easiest once you get above 200lbs I think.
I have successfully formed 3 turn (only 3) uni knots in really heavy mono and fluoro though, often with the aid of pliers. I remember managing this and winning a bet in the process with Jinkai 300lbs.
For GT fishing though, is it really necessary to go above 200lbs single strand? I use 170lbs as standard and sometimes venture up to 200, but no more.
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Fg knot to heavy leader and then crimp to swivel. Never had it fail in well over a 100 trips!
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I do exactly what Aaron does with the Yucatan. Simple, strong and effective. I don't use that heavy leader you guys are talking about now so have not done this but what if you used a crimp instead of a knot?
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I use a crimp- based system now. The nail knot is so painful to tie.
Mark, it's just for a bite leader segment. If a really big fish inhales the lure, it can wear through 170lb quite easily.
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Thanks for the clarification Brandon.
Have you considered a kevlar sleeve over your normal shock leader, rather than a separate bite leader? I played around quite a lot with ideas for bite resistance and quite liked the kevlar sleeve set up as it was neat and avoided an extra connection (be it knot or crimp).
I guess that the downside of a kevlar sleeve is that the fish might see it quite easily?
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We had big fish bite clean through 300lb shock leader on several occasions in Socotra.
We ended up using 400lb in some instances with 600lb Kevlar sleeve.
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Wow Luke. Would you mind sharing how you set up the kevlar sleeve? Just a simple sleeve with a knot to stop it moving?
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Do any of you use knot savers?
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Wow Luke. Would you mind sharing how you set up the kevlar sleeve? Just a simple sleeve with a knot to stop it moving?
Hi Mark,
Yes, just slide the Kevlar over the nylon and then do a overhand knot near the junction so both materials are in the one knot.
Luke
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Brandon, on 270 lbs Sunline mono I have used a 6 turn clinch knot on a Profishco Grommet/ring with succes. Beautiful and strong knot, and the stress on the main part of the leader is eased at the bottom of the knot compared to a uni knot.
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I can't get it to bite with really heavy leader, Peter
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Mark, I have used the kevlar sleeve approach in the past. I don't know if it is more visible but it plays on my mind!!
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Wow Luke. Would you mind sharing how you set up the kevlar sleeve? Just a simple sleeve with a knot to stop it moving?
Hi Mark,
Yes, just slide the Kevlar over the nylon and then do a overhand knot near the junction so both materials are in the one knot.
Luke
Thanks very much Luke. That's what I thought.
Brandon - ha! I know what you mean... big visible kevlar-clad leader and... no bites.... the mind starts racing... :-\
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Since 200 lb up looks like anchor rope to me, I use a bowline in heavy mono, which I am sure is heresy, but like a lot of my fishing practices I'll change when it fails. I have never had a bowline fail and can unpick it to change lures??
FG knot from braid to mono or FC leader, bowline uni or blood knot to lure, keeper it simple.
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Mark, I have used the kevlar sleeve approach in the past. I don't know if it is more visible but it plays on my mind!!
Brandon,
I also use the nail and think it's the only alternative to crimps. I tend to leave generous tags, too. Will try Peter's, but when I've got some time.
One the note of the visibility of the kevlar - I guess that's also relative to the fish's temperament. More often than not, the GT bite is reactionary and territorial (although there slow times definitely stick out significantly where you really need to work on shy and timid GTs!)...
I noted that Fukui-San uses Kevlar on ALL his GT rigs and obviously catches GT left right and centre. The first time I saw this he sunk a Pandora 155 with Kevlar some 60 metres down and a few metres later had hooked up and passed on a 50kg GT to one of his clients.
Unless the bite becomes really slow and hard-work, I guess that's why we have many rod configurations to switch, swap and change - if in doubt, simply go back to standard nylon, feel comfortable in your confidence - guess it's better to hook-up and risk it, than not to hook at all, right?
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For what it is worth, my view on this is to keep it simple most of the time - i.e. a single strand mono shock leader straight to terminals or lure.
However, if bite leaders become necessary or you are fishing in true monster fish country where an inhalation becomes more likely, then be prepared with a bite leader set up. For that, I think I prefer the kevlar sleeve set up, than creating a new section of leader with the necessary extra connections. All that notwithstanding some nervousness that kevlar might be very visible!
With kevlar, one clear advantage is that knots do not slip. Anyone who makes their own jigging assists will know that a simple overhand around the hook shank for example, does not slip. Therefore, my idea was form the knot to terminal using the kevlar sleeved leader. This also serves to hold the sleeve in place. Apologies for posting a pic that some of you will have seen before, but it demonstrates what I mean:
(http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac239/markinbali/Kevlarleadercopy.jpg)
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Brandon, do you mean that the knot is slipping? Even with 5-6 turns? I tested the knot to 40 kilograms with no issues.
Regarding bite leader segment:
Is anyone using a long chain knot for protection? I tried at home with 270 lbs which looks very bulky. Maybe it could work with 220 lbs?
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Hi Peter
I can't get the clinch knot to bite with heavy mono. It just won't tighten up properly for me.
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Hi Brandon, I've noticed a better clinch with stiffer leader compared to soft. My preference is Ande hard leader 200 or 250 which has the diameter of 300-350lb other brands. For whatever reason the Ande forms a perfect clinch where some of the others of equal diameter almost seem to grab too much as the knot tightens. Strange
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That's interesting - I would have thought a stiffer leader would have been even harder to knot.
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Regarding bite leader segment:
Is anyone using a long chain knot for protection? I tried at home with 270 lbs which looks very bulky. Maybe it could work with 220 lbs?
It does not look right to me even with 170lb Galis.