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Extreme Jigging: Dogtooth Tuna, Yellowtail Kingfish (Hiramasa), Amberjack, Samson Fish => Tackle & Techniques => Topic started by: Sam Beeby on February 05, 2010, 12:54:33 AM
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I've read alot of the posts talking about how the smith AMJ52EX and Hots WW52XH are rods that can fish Z4500 reels with PE4/5 as well as 6500 size reels and PE8. I'm wondering which JM can fit that mould and if it can do it as well as they do?
I want it to be able to jig 250-300g with a Z4500 (and actually balance with that reel) but be able to handle 400g and PE8 in fremantle.
On specs I thought the JM350 looked comparable but was hoping to hear from people that have used them.
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The JM 300 and 350 is probably your best bet.
Didnt like the AMJ 52EX.... didnt feel like a PE8 rod. Feels more suited to PE 5 or 6 max. Only played with the WeiWorld 52H once and was bit softer than I thought. Certainly can fish PE 5 or PE 8, not as weird looking under load as the AMJ.
If I had my choice.....JM as they're powerful, light and lots of BLING!! lol
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Sam - Check out the new JM 3 Kings special.... its an amazing rod which will handle 200 to 350 gram jigs with ease, and right up to 500 in a push, but still very comfortable at 400....
Its got a slightly softer tip for the lighter jigs, with HEAPS of backbone in the butt section..... and more bling than you can shake a stick at!! :)
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I think it depends what style of rod you like using too, I like a really parabolic jig rod that gets straight into the power quite quickly, which I find the Wei World does.
I also have to disagree about the 52EX comments above, it is definately a fully fledged PE8 rod and a nice one. I have seen it under serious pressure and handle it easily. The 64kg dogtooth tuna in my recent Fiji report was landed by my mate Tim on his 52EX and it handled it no problems. That fish was landed in under 30 minutes, not bad considering it was steadily taking drag at about 13kg for the first 15 minutes or so. I landed my 63kg one on my Wei World and it was fine, although a tiny bit more stiffness in the last few minutes when I was inching the fish up would have been perfect.
I don't find them weird looking under load either, both it and the Wei World look sexy as when they are bent down to the reel seat IMO, but that just shows you that like most things, these are matters about which reasonable minds can differ.
I recently purchased a JM400, used it a bit and decided it probably isn't for me, but a lot of people love them and there is no doubt they are as tough as nails.
Fact is you won't go wrong with any of the rods you have mentioned IMO for your stated application and jig weights. Back to your original query, the JM 300 should suit or the 350 if you wanted to be safe rathre than sorry.
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I've also got the smiths amj52ex & wei world 52xh rods. In my experience, both will handle jigs in the 200-400gm range and both are genuine pe8 rods. I like both fighting curves - the smiths is a little stiffer & heavler in use than the wei world and less inclined to bend right thru the handle. IMO that makes it a slightly better lifting tool towards the end of the fight but slightly harder work to jig. Know nothing about JM rods but sounds like they will do the job too.
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Ive got a quiver full of JM rods and love em. I have played with e few Smiths and Hots but I haven't really got the feel of them in use. What I can say is that the JM's in the 300g + range are good deep water rods (120m+)that are quite tight to the designated weight range. They can be tuned to some degree with custom building, but I'd say that going from 250-400g on a single JM rod such as the Power Spell would mean that you'll loose something at the ends of the range your looking for. I cannot speak for the JM Three kings yet as I am awaiting delivery of my first blank. I chose the Three kings 200g blank for using 150-300g because I wanted more weight range from a single rod, and I think this one may do it. I believe the Three kings special 300g could fit into your requirements, but how it stacks up against the Smith and Hots I could not confidently say. JM appear to me to be honest about their products and I have good confidence in them. I would add that for me, I would go for a rod that suits the most normal of the activities I expect to be using it for, but thats me.
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Post has come at the right time.
I am after a PE 8 rod for heavy dogtooth work. Will couple with a Stella 20K and fish 65 to 80lb on it. Have considered a Wei World but would like some advice.
Jig used will be 200 to 300gram and fishing done in 100 to 150 metres of water. Was also thinking about Carpenter. Any recommendations??
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Sachin, I got doggies from 10kg to 63kg on my Wei World in Fiji with a 20k Stella FA filled with 80lb braid on a 300gm jig. It fishes 200-320gm jigs beautifully. It will fish 400gm ok but it is not the best for that weight. Depending on the structure you will be fishing and how much pressure you want to put on the fish I would highly recommend this rod
that is a good point about the JM rods and their best jig weight ranges
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Hi Sachin,
I've not long returned from a 2 week stint at the Diamond Islets with Nomad. Loads of doggies, lots of experiences and wonderful memories, including one of our guide with Nomad, Glanville prancing around on the deck of Tide Stick in a storm of spray and rage, all hair, teeth, and eyeballs, seething and foaming at the mouth, expounding every form of expletive ever muttered by man, or even by an enraged rabid South African strain of Tasmanian Devil in the midst of an apoplectic fit, after my companion Micheal got bricked in spectacular style by a leviathan of a doggie that probably went well over 100kg. It was one of 16 that we wrestled on that day between the 2 of us, and we only managed to land 2 complete Dogtooth, all the others were either sharked or just plain bricked us. But I digress.
If the rod fishes 2-300g well and can handle at least PE6, then it will be able to lift the fish in the water, if at least with a little care and no high sticking. A PE8 gives you more power, but it won't stop them from running, and generally speaking will loose some of its lighter jigging weight range. You won't stop them from running, no matter what the rod-you will be relying on the drag output from the reel, and a Stella 20k is as good as you can get with the most drag you can probably still handle. From what I have seen, I would say that if you hook up on a really big dog then your in big trouble any way no matter what the gear. In the two weeks of doggies at the Diamond Islets, there were only three rods broken on a couple of hundred hook-ups, no doubt all due to high sticking.
Sounds to me like Scott's suggestion of the Hots Wei World is as good as any for the job on Dogtooth. The Smith AMJ, and the JM's are also proven and will also do the job just fine. For myself, I am quite happy with the JM's, and I am adding a few more with the addition of a couple of JM Three King Specials to my collection.
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Thanks Earl,
Thats exactly what I wanted to know. I think if the JM 350 (250-400g) range is quite tight to the ideal 350g rating like you say, then the 3 kings (300) 53S-M will be the go. With a bit more length and a softer tip I'm hoping it'll work jigs on the lighter side of the stated 250-400g range better than a JM350 can. It sounds like it'll have as much grunt as the JM350 anyway.
I'm in the process of finding the best east coast supplierof JM's for one now - any advice on that!
thanks
sam
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The Synit Venoms look to be very light yet very powerful for a 100% carbon rod. Amazing deadlifts of over 45 kilos, more than the JM three kings even!
http://www.360tuna.com/forum/f76/synit-venom-blanks-8588/ (http://www.360tuna.com/forum/f76/synit-venom-blanks-8588/)
I have recently obtained a V550FT and it jigs superbly.
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Post has come at the right time.
I am after a PE 8 rod for heavy dogtooth work. Will couple with a Stella 20K and fish 65 to 80lb on it. Have considered a Wei World but would like some advice.
Jig used will be 200 to 300gram and fishing done in 100 to 150 metres of water. Was also thinking about Carpenter. Any recommendations??
Gidday Sachin
The new Jigging Master Three Kings Special 53S-M or 53S-H would do the job nice. The 53S-M would be more suited if you plan on using lighter jigs from 200-300gram as stated, if you did want to use heavyer jigs it would be fine as its suited from 250-400gram.
These new rods are very very powerful I have loaded them up and are amazed with the power they produce from such a thin blank.
Let me no if you want Pete to bring one over for his trip, I have said to him that im more than happy to deck him out with some JM jigging gear if needed.
Cheers Coxy
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Sam, I'm a big JM fan - really like their rods. I have a three kings 53m in the overhead version (with a trinidad 40N and YGK PE6) and like you selected it as a rod for heavier lines, without having to use use heavier jigs - I think a useful combo for tropical jigging. The rod is not as parabolic as the powerspell rods in the JM range and is a little longer - this allows it a greater jig weight range.
The down side is that that little extra length and faster taper makes it a little harder to jig the heavy weights for a long period - the leverage is working against you. Its happy with 400gm centre weighted jigs jigging from the belt, but if you like to jig tail weighted jigs from the armpit you will quickly tire with a 400 gram jigs. Much better suited to 300s.
In all, I still think its a great rod with plenty in reserve, and really makes sense as a travelling jig rod if you only want to take one rod - its built beautifully and is as tuff as nails - another level of security when you are travelling.
Thumbs up from me!
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I read about all these blanks/rods that can deadlift this and that. Personally I can't see how a rod that want deadlift 22kg or 45kg has got anything to do with real time fishing?? Does that mean it can withstand up 22kg of drag pressure?? or just able to lift a keg of beer??
as quoted by Pauline Hanson "Please Explain???"
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It certainly helps when, for example, you are trying to lift a circling tuna or a GT laying on its side at the end of a fight to have a high dead lift capacity. The fact that the fish is in water means you are not deadlifting its full weight, but there is a formula that can work it out as to how much you are 'dead lifting'
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Thanks Peter,
I got an email from the retail people at AG that fits in with what you said. They said that the PS350 and 3KS-M are more or less comparable, but that it comes down to what boat you jig out of for which rod you'd take. They said low rail boat = power spell. High rail boat = 3 kings, where the extra length and tippiness alows you to jig and fight in a slightly more high stick fashion that clears the rails. I guess that might suit eggbeaters better too.
I was surprised that he said he uses the PS350 with 250/300g jigs and the 3 kings with 300-400g jigs - I thought it would be around the other way with the stiffer tipped power spell better with the heavier jigs but anyway.
For what I'd outlined, he was adamant that the 3 Kings 53S-M was what I needed so I think i'll go with that. Thanks for the help people!
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Thanks for all the advise guys. Now the difficult part.
Decisions.........decisions
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Sachin,
I will bring the 7'8 popping rod and a couple of jig sticks for you to look at.
Cheers,
Pete
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Agree Sam about emailing AG direct.
Pony at Jigging Master was so helpful by providing heaps of info and advice to me when I was selecting a blank. His email answered everything as there were no rods or blanks in Sydney stores then to compare. Great service..
I reckon your 3 Kings will be sweet!
Cheers David
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I read about all these blanks/rods that can deadlift this and that. Personally I can't see how a rod that want deadlift 22kg or 45kg has got anything to do with real time fishing?? Does that mean it can withstand up 22kg of drag pressure?? or just able to lift a keg of beer??
as quoted by Pauline Hanson "Please Explain???"
Nothing to do with drag pressure.
The reasoning behind this is very simple- the more deadlift a rod is capable of, the more punishment it will take and the more it will stand up to abuse unscathed ie. high-sticking, locked drags, angler error, imperfect technique etc. And if a 150g all carbon blank can lift 45kg it will have a lot of muscle to move stubborn big fish too!
GT rod blank manufacturers perform deadlift tests as well to determine the strength of the joint. This is especially important for 2 pc GT rods as the weak point is almost always at the joint. JDM companies tend not to publicize deadlift tests but they do perform them.
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Seems a bit misleading but as to light that much usually requires equal amount of stopping force for the opposite end, hence the drag. Also where you hold the rod is also a pivotal point of the lifting as well. Most blank Ive seen are held at the end of the blank for the dead lifting demos. So to me I can't see how deadlifting a large amount of weight can be applied to real world fishing situations.
Sorry to be ranting on abit, just trying to figure out WHY and HOW.
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Not sure why it is misleading mate. To put it simply, more deadlift equates to a blank that will take more abuse, high-sticking, knocks and add to that the ability to handle more drag to turn stubborn fish. Deadlift is just one part of the equation but it is critical in real-world situations.
If you have a 2 blanks, same dimensions but one can lift 15kg max and the other 45kg max...on long hard fight with a big fish, the 15kg test blank will probably have a greater chance of failing due to delamination and other factors. The 15kg blank will be more of a "finesse" blank. Just compare Wei World vs Sevenseas Imperial...both rods used to land big fish but there are many reports of Wei World failures in Taiwan...of course the Imperial is a much heavier rod, so the challenge is to design a lightweight rod which can take a lot of abuse (deadlift).
Position of pivot points are are another piece of the puzzle and play a part in determining the load ratios. Then you have to add taper etc...
cheers
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ah...k
slowly understanding it. I guess a blank that can deadlift more weight will be more responsive, in terms of pulling power, than one that can dead lift less weight.
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I think it would be a very bad mistake to think that what makes a good jigging blank is deadweight lifting ability. If you use a measure like that, a crowbar would be the ultimate jigging blank.
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hence why I dont buy rods based on their "deadlifting" power. I rather do a dry load with line through it and get a feel for it. If its good, then go for it.
I know its hard to figure what you need when purchasing online but at the end of the day its a gamble you take, after doing all the possible research on the items.
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Well I finally bit the bullet and went for the 3 kings 300. Received it the other day from QLD from huntingfishingcamping.com and can't wait to use it. I was surprised to see that the deadlift capacity was written on the rod along with the other specs - never seen that before - but at least it lets me know its not a rod I have to tip toe around.
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no but you might be tip toeing when the fish drags you around....lol
Awesome rod there. You'll love it.
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I think it would be a very bad mistake to think that what makes a good jigging blank is deadweight lifting ability. If you use a measure like that, a crowbar would be the ultimate jigging blank.
Quite the contrary. There are very important reasons why blank manufacturers perform deadlift tests and I have outlined some of these reasons in my posts above.
Deadlift is one part of the equation. Action is the other part. Obviously a good blend of action, weight and strength makes a great jigging rod. You can have a rod with great action, feather weight lightness but it will be of no use if it breaks easily under load.