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Topwater Caranx Ignobilis: Giant Trevally (GT) => Tackle & Techniques => Topic started by: Andy Rowe on March 25, 2012, 03:01:28 PM
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Anybody tried this line?
Slightly higher claimed average break than the usual GT Max power and slightly less than Super max power version. Comes in 300, 500 and 600m spools depending on the class. The main difference apparently is a coating of "super prime flouride" which claims to reduce friction through the guides. Average breaking on par with the varivas jigging lines, Tuna PE and Big One, so I wonder if it is just this jigging line with the flouride.
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Andy,
Is this new model? I have not found such model on Varivas internet site? May be you mean Varivas Avani Casting PE Max Power?
Anyway, according to their catalogue, all Max Power and SMP models you mentioned (both jigging and casting types) has the same SP-F coating, so it can not be a difference, I think... And the maker also writes that this line is specially designed for casting (though the material is the same Max Power). So, the question "why is the same material with the same coating different in strength depending on the model?" is really interesting. Anyone has an idea?
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Hi Dmitrii,
Yep you have the name correct, and your question hits the mark, checking and translating all the definitions on the site give no more clarity.
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So does that mean the gt smp casting is pritty much the same as the 10x10 max power jigging braid without the 10m colour change?
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The mysteries of Japanese braid manufacturers :).
On a diameter versus breaking strain basis, I had actually always assumed that Varivas Avani GT SMP is more similar to Varivas Avani Big One jigging braid. Those seem to the two Varivas braids with the highest breaking strains versus diameter (?) and they are also of course the most expensive.
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Dan,
According to Varivas homepage, "SMP PE (super max power PE) is max power PE with special additional coating, which makes the line more durable and friction resistant". Though both these lines (smp and mp) have absolutely the same treatment mark - "SP-F" coating mark. It is really mysterious. And it makes me think that "SP-F" coating might be of different level for different models. So, does it mean that it is not the coating type, but the coating level which makes difference?
And the maker does not say why the breaking strength of smp is greater than regular max power... I doubt it can be only because of the coating...
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Thanks Mark and Dmitrii, if its pritty close to if not the same stuff, do you guys think there would be any reason why i shouldnt use the 10x10mp on the casting gear too? Got 10x10mp in the pe3 and pe5 getting low on the jigging spools ie round 200m and going to re-spool them back to full 300m. Mite put the 200m braid on the casting spools as its in good condition?
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I see absolutely no problem in using 10x10 Max Power for casting.
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I have done a fair bit of casting with Varivas Big One jigging braid without incident. I like the fact that a PE5 jigging braid tests at 80lbs (for example). Gives you very big line capacity. And it's a good way to measure you casting distance ;)
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Avani GT max power by virtue of making it IGFA compliant seems to have somehow have achieved a better shock or strike load bearing capability :o ::). SMP and Big one both rated higher than max power do not fare as well under 'GT' type shock loads / strikes.
I'd like to try out Sunline in PE8 but until i can source it i am going to stay with what has consistently worked for me, i.e. the GT max power for GT applications. One day we may discover the science behind this stuff ;)
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awesome boys, thought it was a bit of a waste to bin it as it costs a packet!! As Mark said its pritty cool having the pe5 at 80lb, thats why i like it on the jigging spools as ya get alot on the 16000 spool. just dont spool it on the 8000 spool, comes up real short :)
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Hi Andy when i was thinking of spooling up dogfight i talked to the nomad guys and they had used that line but it was really bad for wind knots casting all day they put me onto the avanti gt still get the occasional knot .The other thing i noticed was the low breaking strength of the varivas pe 8 i was lucky to get 18kgs over scales and it never broke at the knot send spool back and they reckoned it broke at 37kgs dont know how the japanese test these things very exe equipment i guess am using pe 10 now dont know if this helps or hinders .
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Just for the record, I use Varivas Avani GT Max Power for all my GT fishing. This is in my view, the single best line you will find for GT casting purposes. The only exception would be when I can't get it for some reason and then it is JB Solid or Tufline XP.
I do use Big One sometimes when I feel extra spool capacity could be an issue - eg Tuna casting - and as I have it anyway as Jigging line, I don't need to buy anything extra for the very odd occasion when I do go Tuna casting.
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Sorry guys it was the smp they told me to steer clear of .
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I think many would give you that advice Troy - it is very sound.
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damm! just put the casting pe8 smp on a spool last month. haha oh well. just wont buy it again! i have been out twice and used it catching kings with no probs tho.. :o ..maybe because its still new? anyways ill stear clear next time round!
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Troy, funnily enough it was on nomad when i exprienced my SMP failure and the line was brand new, nice soft line but as you note the more supple, the easier to wind knot.
I have seen PE6 Big One break on GT surface strikes as well.
The GT max PE6-10 are great lines though wind knots happen, it's part of the pros and cons.
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I exploded SMP PE8 once with a high effort cast and have not used it since. Was yours a casting failure Andy?
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Mark, no a GT came from under the boat hitting the lure head on, the line popped not far from the rod tip.
I exploded SMP PE8 once with a high effort cast and have not used it since. Was yours a casting failure Andy?
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Guys just one thing have any of you tested breaking strain of these lines i think you will be surprised if not dissapointed they dont break anywhere near there rated strengths i only tie a spidr hitch to attach to scales and get as far away as possible 10metres plus and over my popper rod lucky to pull drag before line breaks.Just somthing to look at .
May your fish be huge and your beers icy.
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Hi Troy, can you explain in a bit more detail how you do this test?
Guys just one thing have any of you tested breaking strain of these lines i think you will be surprised if not dissapointed they dont break anywhere near there rated strengths i only tie a spidr hitch to attach to scales and get as far away as possible 10metres plus and over my popper rod lucky to pull drag before line breaks.Just somthing to look at .
May your fish be huge and your beers icy.
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Yeah i tie a spider hitch in the line run line over my popper rod or whicheva rod i grab move at least 5 if not 10metres away attach scales to spida hitch and load up not never breaks the line breaks between 100mm and 1metre from knot.
Hope this helps.
may your fish be huge and your beers icy.
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Guys just one thing have any of you tested breaking strain of these lines i think you will be surprised if not dissapointed they dont break anywhere near there rated strengths i only tie a spidr hitch to attach to scales and get as far away as possible 10metres plus and over my popper rod lucky to pull drag before line breaks.Just somthing to look at .
May your fish be huge and your beers icy.
I am not sure it matters. I can't think I would ever fish more than 20 kgs (usually more like 12) of drag for GTs and PE8 line is not going to break in line at that drag rating. I have caught lots of fish at 40 kgs plus on Varivas Avani GT Max without incident. It also casts like a dream. Those are the two things that do matter.
Shock load on a line is different kettle of fish altogether and it cannot be tested by straight line pulling. I have had shock load explosion problems with two leading lines and those are blacklisted as it is not much fun loosing $100 plus lures to such accidents.
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Troy, breaking strength of any line depends a lot of its ammortization ability. PE is not stretchable, so the sharper you pull, the easier it breaks. You can explode 80LB high quality PE buy only 9-10 kg load in case you pull very very sharply. That's why we use shock leaders, twisted leaders, biminitwists and powerfull but flexible rods - all these things take a lot of load from the PE. Though I also noticed that all Japanese PE break at lower loads when they are tested with scales....
Andy, I was a little bit confused about lines with IGFA mark on them, when I knew what this mark meaned. They put this mark on the lines "which breaking strength is guaranteed to be not more than specified on the spool". in other words, in case it is 80Lb IGFA line, it should break at loads less than 80lb. It is very logic from the point of IGFA record rules, but from the point of view of a usual angler like me (not IGFA recorder), I would prefer overtest line instead of IGFA line...
I use both SMP and Avani GT MP for casting, and though I do not have long experience I can not say I noticed big difference in making windknots between these two lines so far. I was of the very good opinion of SMP till your comments of explosion... Fishing is about so many questions and doubts!
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Dmitri,
Good point on the shock load issue.
That's right on the IGFA meaning, without more information you'd have to assume that the lower breaking factor of the GT Max somehow gives it the higher resistance to shock-load breaking.
So does this equate to a different fibre used between GT Max and the 'SMP' / 'Big One' / 'Tuna' / 'casting max' PE's which are the same PE designation but different breaking strains or a difference in the way the fibre is weaved?? The coatings ... who knows but the PE diameter is the same. :-\
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Andy n others ,
Guide wraps is one factor we have to live with during casting and guide wrap causes fiber to be frayed and the ability of a line to absorb the shock load is greatly reduced after several guide wraps , hence the line break by shock load is usually occur a few meters from the knot to the leader . Guide wrap during snap power casting have been known to pull the stripper guide out of it's wrapping , so imagine the shock load of such cast .
Wind knot in some extend causes some fiber to be frayed especially when pulling the line to free the small hitch caused by wind knot is employed , this tend to greatly affect the coating of the PE line and leave the fiber of the PE line exposed . Untangling the wind knot can cause frictions and none of the PE line in the market is especially good against friction , when comared to nylon lines let alone fluorocarbon lines .
The coating protects the fiber from abrasion , after heavy usage the coating will wear off and the fibers are exposed to frictions despite using SIC guides which is supposedly to be friction free but nothing is friction free when the rod is bent under heavy load , micro nicks which can't be seen by naked eyes on the surface of the SIC guides can cause fraying to the already exposed fibers .
Stiff rods can contribute to " explosion " of line during a violent strike but the root cause of such line break is due to the line has been damaged prior to the engagement .
There are many other factors to the causes of shock load line break , I am not discounting the slack QC in the factory as well as mis handlings during and after the line leaves the factory as well as our own equipment failures as as bail arm roller in the reel , corroded spool lip , etc. , etc.
Jon .
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Andy, I think the only way to know is ask Varivas... or find a person who already asked Varivas and got reply ;)
Jon, you are so right and there are really so many factors affecting line breaks. Once me and 2 my friends got new YGK 8WX Jigman line and during next fishing 2 my friends had several line breaks just without any clear reason. It just broke about 10m from the end during fighting with small fish. YGK is very reliable maker, so we were very surprised. But sometime after we assumed that the reason was mishandling during winding the line on the spool. I winded the line on beforehand using Daiichi winding machine and having applied teflon spray on the edges of the bobbin before the start. And my line did not fail. My both friends winded the line in a haste in the hotel before the fishing - one holding the bobbin, another reeling. I think that line going out from the bobbin got into contact with its edges and the line's coating was affected. May be, it was not that, but it was the only difference in line handling between me and my friends.
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Jon, you have raised some important factors here which can lead to failure, at least some of these are within our control to check. After all the preparation and waiting for a GT trip to be let down by simple things that could have been avoided by routine checking and maintenance especially on the line rollers, rod guides and perhaps stripping a bit of line of the spool which got heavily used last trip, Word!
Dmitri, getting back to my initial question yes looks like a matter of going to the manufacturer, maybe they would be kind enough to explain.
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Hi Andy ,
For users of Shimano Stella SW , I think bail-arm roller is the one piece of component that could be the main cause of line being frayed , a few anglers in Jakarta have had to change their bail-arm line roller due to the cracking of the coating , unlike the previous FA model which employ line roller made from solid metal , the new Stella SW reels has line rollers are made from formed metal sheet coated with ceramic like coating which is most likely to deform under high drag situation thus causing the crack . This is my observation on the reels , some others may have different view on this issue .
Jon .
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Jon, here is the thread http://www.gtpopping.com/forum/index.php?topic=5133.0 (http://www.gtpopping.com/forum/index.php?topic=5133.0)
I am in the process of changing all mine out now, I bought two new pieces in Singapore last time i was there, all my SW stellas are early batches so i need 3 more new line rollers. I wonder if Shimano in Jakarta will replace the part for free??
Hi Andy ,
For users of Shimano Stella SW , I think bail-arm roller is the one piece of component that could be the main cause of line being frayed , a few anglers in Jakarta have had to change their bail-arm line roller due to the cracking of the coating , unlike the previous FA model which employ line roller made from solid metal , the new Stella SW reels has line rollers are made from formed metal sheet coated with ceramic like coating which is most likely to deform under high drag situation thus causing the crack . This is my observation on the reels , some others may have different view on this issue .
Jon .
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Hi Andy ,
Shimano distributors in Jakarta charges IDR. 200k for part n service to replace the roller but a few anglers had to do the same exercise a couple of times and each time they were charged the same amount , hence the opinions of the design flaw from the manufacturer's side in this particular topic .
Jon .
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Hi Jon, it does not surprise me you'd get charged here.
Need to give my stellas a service anyway and my old twin power which is making some nasty noises under load.
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Hi Jon, it does not surprise me you'd get charged here.
Need to give my stellas a service anyway and my old twin power which is making some nasty noises under load.
Andy, if it is purely the bail arm roller change which is an acknowledged problem by Shimano, it should most definitely be done for free. This problem is so well acknowledged by Shimano they even have the coloured dot system for the boxes which tell you whether the the problem has already been dealt with.
If P.T Aneka Raya Pancing in Jakarta will not fix for free, I would suggest emailing Shimano Singapore and making a very loud complaint. Singapore are ultimately responsible for the Indonesian authorised dealers.
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Hi Guys
Just to clear it up, Varivas Avani GT 'Casting' Max Power is the same line as Avani GT Max Power. It is just spooled in different lengths instead of the usual 600m.
Interesting thread on the subject of line breaks. Like you guys, I've broken a fair few lines over the years for many different reasons. I think the number one reason for unexplained line failure in GT fishing is due to previous wind knots or guide wraps weakening the line. Often this happens in brand new line because the angler has tried to fit too much line on the spool, causing a few major casting knots early in the line's life.
Another major cause is not winding the line on tightly enough when spooling up. If the line is 'soft on the spool, then it will bite into itself under load. As the line digs into itself and then gets ripped out under load, it can cause significant damage to the line. Often this happens when a new spool of line seems great and then after a couple of fish it suddenly starts to fail unexpectedly.
In the shop I see very few examples of truly dud braid (though it can happen). Generally, as much we hate to admit it, braid breakages usually come back to something that we anglers have done to the line ourselves.
Cheers
Duncan
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Hi Duncan,
I'd sort of assumed this but the issue is the stated average breaking point of the lines, for instance PE8 100lb vs 112lb for the casting version and no IGFA rating for the latter!!.
If you had links with Varivas people I'd love to know what the differences really are, if any, could we also therefore conclude the 'Tuna' and 'Big One' are simply painted versions of the same in this case then?
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.varivas.co.jp%2Fmorris%2F02_varivas%2Fsaltwater_spec.html (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.varivas.co.jp%2Fmorris%2F02_varivas%2Fsaltwater_spec.html)
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Hi Andy,
I hadn't seen the chart, now its got me confused! when I was speaking to them recently in Japan, I was told it is essentially the same line. I'll see what I can find out.
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Duncan, if there is anyway you could sort that out with Varivas I am sure many of us would be eternally grateful! Like Andy and I would imagine others, I have always found the various Varivas lines very confusing. Despite that, I still rarely use anything else!
On line failures, I think your comments are spot on. I have always at least tried not to judge a line based on one incident as I realise it may well have been my fault. However, when there is a pattern of multiple breakages of the same brand, but not with others, then I think a judgement can be made.
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Hi all just want to say theres a lot of talk why and how the line breaks but how can i go into my backyard and tie what is arguably a pretty dodgy knot pull it over scales that have been tested using set weights and pulled slowly not jerked 100lb or pe8 line breaks at 18kgs the manufactures sent back test results saying that said line broke over there shimadzu breaktest machine on average 39.6kgs thats a lot of difference. Go test for yourself i say .
May your fish be huge and your beers icy
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Hi all
I asked Varivas about the difference between Avani GT Max Power and Avani Casting Max Power. I just got this answer from Varivas, UK:
"Hello Peter,
Thank you for your e-mail enquiry via our Varivas web site.
I am not a member of the GT Popping.com forum, so I can not
access the discussion.
I can tell you that there is no difference between the PE lines
sold as Avani GT Max Power and Avani Casting PE Max Power.
Similarly with Avani GT SMP and Avani GT SMP Casting.
Avani GT Max Power and Avani GT SMP (Super Max Power) were
originally sold only on 600M spools.
In response to customer demand, we decided to offer the same
lines, in both types, in a selection of spool lengths (200M, 300M,
400M, 500M, 600M) to suit various reel capacities.
We were also able to "add" a few smaller sizes, which didn't make
much sense in solely 600M spool lengths.
This does mean, however, that some sizes are available in 600M
spools as Avani GT Max Power and Avani Casting Max Power.
But they are exactly the same lines - and the same price list price.
I hope this helps.
If I can be of further help, feel free to contact me at this
e-mail address.
Thank you for your interest in our Varivas products.
David
David Mitchell
VARIVAS (UK)"
Then I asked about the difference in breaking strength between the two lines and got this reply:
"Hello again Peter,
PE "multi-filament" lines (braided PE) are notoriously difficult to
gauge breaking strains of with any great precision.
We would typically run tests, on a random selection of stock lines,
at 10 random positions on each line. This would give us not only the
"average" breaking strain, but also "maximum" and "minimum" breaking
strains.
The breaking strain figures published for the original Avani GT Max
Power lines were "average" breaking strains, which is the figure the
pleasure angler is really interested in.
The "maximum" bs figures are given for the Casting PE Max version
as a guide for possible IGFA record applications, etc.
We guarantee the lines will break "at or before" the maximum figures,
whereas the LB breaking strain figures shown for Avani GT Max lines
are "average", and therefore not so accurate.
With multi-filament lines, in sizes up to 100lbs or 150lbs, no manufacturer
can guarantee exact, reproducible breaking strains. The highest-quality
lines will have least margin of variation.
Hence, for example, our GT Max size #5 is shown as bs LB 70lbs,
but the Casting PE Max line size #5 is shown as MAX LB 78lbs.
The same line.
We can't tell you exactly what breaking strain the line will break at.
No manufacturer can.
But we can tell you the maximum breaking strain it will break at,
therefore guaranteeing it WILL break at-or-before that figure.
Does this all make sense? I've never tried to explain that before!
David"
So for PE10, the average BS is tested to 130 lbs where as the max BS is 137 lbs. Another parameter which would be nice to know is: What is the minimum BS? I think you could estimate it to 123 lbs whithout stretching the math too much :)
Hope it is useful to some of you.
I just bought the Casting Max Power, hence my interest.
Peter
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do all you boys use the pe10 gt max for popping ?
how does cast being thicker PE
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....using Daiichi winding machine ....
Sorry if it's OT, but I'd like some more info or some link for these type of machine.
I would like to find one that allows me to fill the spool with no stress for the line. Currently, I do this manually, but I don't think it's the best way: so many stress for the line (on the guide of rod and on roller of reel) , so unnecessary work for the gears of the reel, very hard works for spooling at the right tension...
May be I'm wrong, but I think that spooling tension must be near (or a little bit more) to drag setting tension, to prevent that the line goes under the braided in the spool, in case of an important fighting.
So, I'm looking for something similar, but simpler and cheeper:
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
I try to find this daiichi winding machine whit no results.
Thanks in advance for yours help. I hope my English is comprehensible. Sorry if it is not :-[
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This one look like what I'm looking for. Some of you have already used it?:
&feature=related
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Hi Antonio,
I was writing about this machine
http://www.daiichiseiko.com/products/detail.php?product_id=2453
In English it is called "Recycle DS"
there are two movies on this link how you can use it
And this is also good link to this item
http://www.daiichiseiko.com/news/recycler/recycler.html
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Thanks Dmitrii :)
I will take in to consideration this item, although is not exactly what I had in my mind...
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Guys
I recently sent 2 samples of Avani GT SMP PE8 and PE10 to Paulus for independent testing...I was concerned with the PE8 as I thought it broke prematurely when testing a knot..anyway results below
http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/4linetesting.htm (http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/4linetesting.htm)
The PE8 tested 95.95lb Diameter .591
The PE10 tested 122.7lb Diameter .653
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Something wrong with "stated Lb" on the site of Paulus for these test samples... It shows the same "stated Lb" for both GT Max and SMP Casting - 100Lb for PE8 and 130Lb for PE10, though breaking strain stated on the pack of SMP is higher about 20% than GT Max Power.
Anyway it is interesting that regular Max Power is stronger than Super Max Power (SMP).