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Topwater Caranx Ignobilis: Giant Trevally (GT) => Tackle & Techniques => Topic started by: Patrick Parisienne on April 30, 2012, 04:40:49 PM
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Hi all,
Looking at a trip to Townsville QLD in June, with some GT fishing on the menu.
Have walked around shops and seen some GT rods, and suitable reels, which are dirt cheap compared to the Carpenters, Ripple Fishers etc.
Examples are:
Daiwa Monster Mesh Max: 8'6" long, rated to PE 8, $220
Berkley Venom-Viper GT : 7'6" long rated to PE 8-12, 26 kg drag $399
Xzoga Taka -Pi 7710: 7'7" long, rated to PE 10, 25kg drag $450
Dogfight Expedition 10000 reels $399 30 kg drag.
I myself have 2 budget stickbait / tuna combos.
Shimano Terez 40-80 lbs 6'9'', Tuff Tackle 10000 Sniper, 320mtrs 80lbs Rovex Depth Finder braid, $520 all up.
Daiwa Monster Mesh PE 3-6, 7'2", Tuff Tackle 10000 Sniper (used), 450mtrs 65lbs Jerry Brown Hollow braid, $400 all up.
Now I realise the reels won't feel as smooth as Stallas and Saltiags, and rods may not be as light, or powerful as the top end stuff....
...but in people's opinion, is gear at this sort of price point suitable for GTs, doggies etc?
Cheers,
Pat
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Hi Patrick, no comments on any of those rods as I know little or nothing about any of them.
What do you mean by "Dogfight Expedition 10000" reels?
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Hi Mark,
Made an error. It is the XT Dogtooth Terminator. Available at Tackleworld stores for $380 now I think.. Maybe a good back up reel for some.
http://www.ifish.com.au/store/products.php?product=XT%22Dogtooth%22-Terminator (http://www.ifish.com.au/store/products.php?product=XT%22Dogtooth%22-Terminator)
My Tuff Tackle reels are basically the same thing, but I got them much cheaper!!! I bought a spare 12000 spool (600mtrs of PE 8 capacity) for $50, which is good value I would think, when you consider it comes with a Carbontex drag stack...
Tuff Tackle now also have a range of CNC machined reels that look good for the $$$$ too...
Cheers,
Pat
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Patrick, I don't think you will find many fans of Tuff Tackle reels in this forum.
I suspect the XT Dogtooth Terminator is another rebranded Chinese reel?
In that price bracket, I would recommend a Shimano Saragosa 18000. A proven, tough reel that gets the job done.
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Hi Mark,
People not impressed with the product or the people?
Don't know where the Dogtooth is made, but it wouldn't surprise me these days. I guess you ALWAYS get what you pay for.....
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If you wanted to keep the price on a combo reasonable I would go with the absolute best reel and line I can afford and compromise on one of the cheaper rods that have been proven to get the job done. I.e. Shimano GT Special.
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I actually had a look at one of these in a tackle world. They seemed OK but how they actually perform long term is another matter.
The general appearance of the reel (XT Dogtooth Terminator) looked OK, sort of what you get with the better (top?) end of the Chinese offerings.
They look fairly substantial but whether they could sustain a big days fishing (if anyone was able to fish continuously with those sort of drags :-\ ) would be anyone's guess. Sort of reminded me of the older Penn eggbeaters, sort of heavy and workmanlike rather than light smooth and fashionable.
If I was in the market for something that I needed to use 8kg drag on I would consider one of these reels (effectively derateing it), but they are physically heavier than their expensive opposition, but then they are substantially cheaper too.
One thing we should all remember (well those of us old enough :-[ ) was that in the early 60s the Japanese had a pretty awful reputation for producing junk (tinny jap crap !) but it only took 10 years to change. Now they set the benchmark in quite a few categories.
China will be the same but they will be much quicker; they don't believe in the fundamental concept of copyright (neither do I) but they do seem to have some sort of respect for patents.
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Why take the risk, when a proven performer like the Saragosa is available for similar money?
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Hi Patrick,
Your note about the uncanny resemblance between the Tuff Tackle Sniper 10000, and the XT Dogtooth Terminator (what a name!) is not without reason.
I believe they actually all come from the same OEM factory in China, who produces them by the thousands, and then brands them (and makes some minor adjustments, e.g. handle) according to 3rd parties who them market them in the various countries (e.g. Tuff Tackle, XT, etc).
So, they're not copies per se - same manufacturer, same reel (more or less), just different name (and price - which is up to the marketeer)
Here's another one: http://www.knkfishing.com/pd-ajiking-wahoo-wh-8000-spinning-reel.cfm (http://www.knkfishing.com/pd-ajiking-wahoo-wh-8000-spinning-reel.cfm)
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Ok, so the reel side of things has been addressed. Any thoughts on the rod side of things?
I think I'll leave heroics to another time, and stick to PE 8-10 max rods. Thoughts???
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this can give you an idea of reels - rated per cost, and then over all.
http://www.alanhawk.com/reviews/lists.html (http://www.alanhawk.com/reviews/lists.html)
I agree that you should spend your cash on a reel - this is essentially the thing that controls the amount of line you loose or gain....
the rod is an aid to this.
it will then be a matter of balancing the rod against your reel, and your wallet.
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I was surprised that the Saltiga came in a close third behind the Penn. Doesn't seem to be many fisherman using the Penn, can anyone comment as to why?
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Surprised me too! I think you always take these tests with a grain of salt....
I know a lot of Kingy fishos in Sydney swear by the Penn Slammer reels, never seen a Torque reel though.
Surprised that the Ryobi Carnelian is in the 'rubbish' group. I've read where one of the New Cal operaters use them with 100lbs braid, and Samurai rods successfully. Of course, longevity is unknown....
I started this thread because it seems more and more "GT" targeted gear is coming onto the market, at much lower than traditional pricepoints, and this forum is THE place to get relevant info whether it cuts the mustard or not.....
Cheers,
Pat
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I was surprised that the Saltiga came in a close third behind the Penn. Doesn't seem to be many fisherman using the Penn, can anyone comment as to why?
I think Alan Hawke almost surprised himself at how much he liked the Penn Torque. If you read the individual reviews of the New Saltiga and the Torque you will see why.
On that top 5 list, the presence of Accurate Twinspin and absence of Shimano Twinpower SW surprises me!
As to why we see relative few Torques being used in the popping/jigging world, would you leave the house with something that ugly? :)
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hi patrick, can't write what is already written about your reels of choice. like what you said, you ALWAYS get what you paid for and Mark has already given his thoughts about it (which I concur).
about your choice of rods, amongst the three, and personally for me, there is only 1 rod i'd take along with me i.e the Berkley. i've used a couple of rods from berkley (lightning rods) for about 10 years now (and i'm still using it) and not only has it withstood the test of time, it impressed me with its resilience and versatility. obviously, good maintenance of the rod, or any rod for that matter, is essential too. the Venom-Viper GT, i've a few mates of mine using it and all their feedback are that its performance is pretty decent (not too stiff, a tad bit heavy but still manageable, ablility to cast heavy poppers and stickbaits). the Venom-Viper GT will get the job done albeit with lots of back-breaking pain if a monster's at the end of the line. naturally, overall performance/material used, it doesn't belong to the 'premier league' of popping rods but the Berkley should be able to hold its own.
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Surprised that the Ryobi Carnelian is in the 'rubbish' group. I've read where one of the New Cal operaters use them with 100lbs braid, and Samurai rods successfully. Of course, longevity is unknown....
Mr Hawk's review closes as follows:
The Carnelian is badly designed, extremely heavy, needlessly complicated, cheaply made using comical components, assembled by people who couldn't care less, and all of that was manifested in poor performance and unpleasant time on the water. I am declaring this reel the single worst reel I have ever tested in my life, and I'm moving on.
http://www.alanhawk.com/reviews/rycar.html (http://www.alanhawk.com/reviews/rycar.html)
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Well that's a pretty emphatic NO I guess!!!! Still surprised by the Penn Torque over the Saltiga!!!!
Robin, thanks for that feedback. I too use a couple of Berkley rods for other fish, and am happy with them. I can see the gist is that people support buying a premium reel, and play with different sticks accordingly.
I've never held a 'premium' GT rod before (only up to an Xzoga 7710), and I thought that was nice. Can only imagine the top end stuff.....
As I found out with bream tackle, you don't know just how good the higher end stuff is until you use it yourself.
We'll see if my reels can handle some Bluefin Tuna (hopefully big ones), before I head to QLD.
Cheers,
Pat
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The Penn Torques would appear to be up to it. They're built very strongly. I'd suggest the primary reasons are that the reels appear more suitable for jigging and the price. At their prices, most people probably opt for the tried and true
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At their prices, most people probably opt for the tried and true
Wise, wise, wise words that many people simply do need heed.
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The Penn Torques would appear to be up to it. They're built very strongly. I'd suggest the primary reasons are that the reels appear more suitable for jigging and the price. At their prices, most people probably opt for the tried and true
And they look like drag queen's ear-rings 8)
(http://surfcastersjournal.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/yhst-12446447774089_2075_105732221.jpg)
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Wow - that's some serious bling :o
Not a good look!
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I'm not sure but looking at them, they way they are built bears some resemblances to the Van Staals and ZeeBaas. Were they designed as a surf reel?
Personally, I don't really understand why an angler would want to spend that kind of money on a reel with no pedigree in the sport but each to their own, I suppose. At least to Penn's credit, there has been none of the nonsensical claims which we have seen with some other reels but I will say no more as the last thing that gtpopping wants is for Pierce/Jeff Eldrin or whatever he calls himself these days to reappear. :o
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the last thing that gtpopping wants is for Pierce/Jeff Eldrin or whatever he calls himself these days to reappear. :o
haha too true mate! wow that penns a very gold reel, i thought the stella was already a little too gold!
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I'm not sure but looking at them, they way they are built bears some resemblances to the Van Staals and ZeeBaas. Were they designed as a surf reel?
Definitely some Zeebass and VS resemblance, but seemingly more robustly built? I am pretty sure they were designed as a surf reel Brandon. Most of the profiles of the reel I have read on American tackle sites, imply just that. My brother actually owns one and uses it for heavy cold water surf fishing. I also note that there are bail-less versions.
Also I guess we have to remember that for American manufacturers, the popping and jigging market is tiny compared to surf-casting.
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I see on the Jarvis Walker website, that this model isn't sold in AUS, by them anyway.....
I suppose it will be hard for another brand to establish a following these days: You need people to buy them to get feedback and reputation, which then convinces people to buy them.
All the same, it seems there isn't really a viable alternative to spending $1K + on a GT reel. Saying that, what about 6500 Saltist's and 18000 Saragosa's??
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I have already recommended Saragosa 18000 twice in this thread Patrick. Whenever we have these discussions about middle market reels for GT fishing, this one seems to come up as the favoured recommendation.
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Slightly off topic but may be relevant. :(
Heard a whisper that Jarvis Walker soon is likely not to distribute Penn and there will be a raft of "Penn like" reels from china being distributed by Jarvis Walker ;)
On the Torque reel review, don't forget USA reviewer for a USA reel... :), but not a bad depth to details & explanation in the review.
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You're right about the Saragosa's Mark, by bad........
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Can consider the Saltist 6500 from Daiwa too. Have only heard positive feedback from ppl who have used it. There was a group who were using Saltists in Southern Oman on monster GTs and the reels performed to expectations........ And they look pretty slick too!
;)
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I was surprised that the Saltiga came in a close third behind the Penn. Doesn't seem to be many fisherman using the Penn, can anyone comment as to why?
Its a bang for your buck rating and the new Saltigas cost much more than the USA Stella let alone the Torque. Not saying its a lousy reel in this company just that the $/performance equation is stronger in this case.
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is rods still a point?
if yes, take a look at the Shimano Caranx Kaibutsu.
The Long Cast was my first popping rod and till today I still use it as a backup rod.
maybe a little heavy, but indestructible, which is important to me, as I love the fight in heavy surf.
prices are good, and you get a real solid rod for what you pay for.
greetz
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I think it is important to make the point that if you are going to opt for a Saragosa or a Saltist, please do not expect that the reels are going to perform to the standards of a Saltiga or a Stella over a reasonable period of use. That is just not realistic. They are at best a compromise based on price.
I have over a long period of time broken every single Saltiga and Stella I have used in some way or another and this extends to every Saltiga and Stella released by both companies since the F series Stellas. The only reel I haven't used and I have no intention to is the latest 6500 series Saltiga. I'm not going to go into the reasons why outside of the personal opinion I have that the Dogfight is a stronger reel.
I don't fish a particularly strong drag pressure although there will be times when the reel is asked to go to the mid-teens but normally, my set drag is in the 10-12kg range. This drag pressure used trip in and trip out have compromised everything in my reels ranging from the main gears to the main shaft. If this is happening to Stellas and Saltigas that are used regularly this way, what will happen to reels like the Saragosa and Saltist if they are treated in the same manner?
I'm not trying to talk anyone out of buying these reels. I am simply trying to inject a dose of realism into this discussion. The fact that the Saltist survived one trip to Oman is meaningless to me because I know nothing of the anglers and how the reels were fished. I note that the Saltist has a maximum drag of 15kgs which means its useable drag is probably more around 10-12kg. It would mean something if they survived trip after trip in the hands of someone who really knows how to fish for GTs but I know of noone in this category who uses these reels.
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Cheap Option = Shimano Saragosa 18000F and Shimano T Curve GT Special - Looking at change from $600.
If your going to be doing it REGULARLY, save your pennies and get a Stella.
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Patrick,
For starting out GT fishing the greatest excitement is getting your lure to a fish and witnessing a massive strike. While important, catching the fish is less important. A decent rod like the Shimano GT Special will get your lure to the fish. I started with a Daiwa sealine bull 6000 hi, upgraded to carbotex washers and set the drag around 9 or 10 kg. When this cheap crap reel breaks I have set my sights on on a stella1800 . But like many I couldn't justify the dollars at the start. I am up to about 40 GT's on this reel. Sure I get dusted a few times but I don't spit the dummie when I can't get to 15 kg drag.
So I am sure you will enjoy GT fishing with mid price reels like the Saragossa or saltist. buy some halco roosters and a few dumbbell 200s maybe even some r2s doggie stick baits and have a go! You can go GT fishing on a budget, just not as consistently successfully reliably
If you get hooked then unfortunately your children will probably never see a cent inheritance
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There is a guy at work that loves his US reels and his big spin number is the Penn Torque. He loves it and can't rate it highly enough. He's not a 'sport fisher' parse, rather he is a bit more sedentary ;) having said that he regularly catches big Spanish & solid GT's (trolling lures).
He cant fault the reel. Having said that, because they dont distribute them here, importing from the states comes with its costs and warranty claiming issues. They are a physically substantial reel as well. All told I think the cost runs pretty close to the two main players in this market anyway and you're still exposed to the support issues.
He has a black one that is accented with gold rather than the all gold model that was pictured earlier. It's a Slightly better looking reel but still pretty bloody unattractive ;D
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Brandon, I don't doubt that a reel half the cost, or less of say a Stella will not last as long, just logic. Those who believe otherwise aren't realistic. But I think 'bang for buck' is important. Still blows me away that you can kill even those sort of reels! You guys fish hard!!!!!
It's just good to know that as a beginner, or part time GT fisho, that lower end stuff can still do the job. I have started collecting lures, some of which Graham mentioned. I can already day any kids of mine will poor with how much I've poured into other tackle!!!
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Brandon, I don't doubt that a reel half the cost, or less of say a Stella will not last as long, just logic. Those who believe otherwise aren't realistic. But I think 'bang for buck' is important. Still blows me away that you can kill even those sort of reels! You guys fish hard!!!!!
It's just good to know that as a beginner, or part time GT fisho, that lower end stuff can still do the job. I have started collecting lures, some of which Graham mentioned. I can already day any kids of mine will poor with how much I've poured into other tackle!!!
Well said Patrick! Highlighting the use of the reel at a place like Southern Oman and hearing only positive reviews from the users serves as a reference only. Its just saying that it should be a decent reel to be able to survive even ONE round at such a demanding place. A crappy reel may not even last through the day, never mind an entire week of heavy use. Nobody said the Saltist is as reliable or could perform like a Saltiga / Stella. That's just simply unrealistic expectations......
Buy what you are comfortable with that's within your budget. As for bang for buck, my recommendation will be the Saltist as I am primary a Daiwa user. There will be other suggestions and recommendations based on the preference of other anglers. Do some research on your own then decide what works for you. Cheers!
Steve
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Again, a Saragosa will do the job. I used one for years, a couple of liveaboard charters a year and some trailer boat trips and never had any issues!
I've up graded to a Stella now, and brought a new Saragosa for jigging!
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Just good to know if my current gear packs up, and I haven't got the $$ at hand for premium reel, I can spend $300 and be confident...
Thanks also to some members who have offered well priced items for sale, to get me going. Much appreciated!!!!
Cheers,
Pat
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I was surprised that the Saltiga came in a close third behind the Penn. Doesn't seem to be many fisherman using the Penn, can anyone comment as to why?
Its a bang for your buck rating and the new Saltigas cost much more than the USA Stella let alone the Torque. Not saying its a lousy reel in this company just that the $/performance equation is stronger in this case.
What makes you say that Sachin? I can't find anything in Alan's reviews which state that monetary value is a negative on the Saltiga 2010, and that this effects his top 5 list? Certainly a chance I could not find a reference to that, but it seems he does not take it into account at all.
In summary his review is basically good on the Saltiga 2010, but the Penn is better and Stella clearly better than both. Whilst there will always be some element of opinion in this, Alan does take an objective, engineering-driven approach to his reel reviews.
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Brandon's post is right on the money and there can be little to add to that.
Patrick, I hope you are able to sift through the replies here and come to the right solution for yourself.
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Yes, many thanks for all the advice!
from all this I can say that if and when my current reel gives up, and finances allow, an 18k Stella would be the go. ( nearly all my reels are Shimano, very happy) I would use this for Bluefin tuna as well. This is especially true if I contract a case of GT addiction!!!!
If the warchest is low on funds, then an 18k Saragosa will suffice.
Rod wise, I think a rod in the $500-$700(new) bracket (i have been gratefully offered some 2nd hand) will be the next purchase. Again if an addiction takes hold, and I upgrade, I know I'll have a good back up stick with me....
Cheers,
Pat
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I was surprised that the Saltiga came in a close third behind the Penn. Doesn't seem to be many fisherman using the Penn, can anyone comment as to why?
My bad. He had some gear ranked by cost hence my thoughts.
Its a bang for your buck rating and the new Saltigas cost much more than the USA Stella let alone the Torque. Not saying its a lousy reel in this company just that the $/performance equation is stronger in this case.
What makes you say that Sachin? I can't find anything in Alan's reviews which state that monetary value is a negative on the Saltiga 2010, and that this effects his top 5 list? Certainly a chance I could not find a reference to that, but it seems he does not take it into account at all.
In summary his review is basically good on the Saltiga 2010, but the Penn is better and Stella clearly better than both. Whilst there will always be some element of opinion in this, Alan does take an objective, engineering-driven approach to his reel reviews.
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Hi Patrick,
The conundrum is trying to find budget tackle to do a top end task! Quality does outlast inferior budget gear, fact. A crap reel is more likely to fail you, where as a carefully selected mid range rod like those mentioned GT Special, Berkley Viper etc will do the job & land decent fish, just weighing a few more grams or lacking a bit of finesse, might not work the chosen lure as sweetly as brand X.
GT fishing is pretty much the pinnacle of the angling sport, plus flavour of the moment appearing on all the covers of fishing mags / dvd's etc.. The evolution of the sport, tackle & ways of sharing information means that a serious GT adventure is top of the list for anglers of all ages & experiences.
To do such trips regularly be it in QLD as you are or around the globe, and being equipped with all the best equipment required for every occassion, is a rich mans sport pure and simple... A quiver of quality rods and reels for a week long trip could surpass the entire cost of the adventure itself!
There are charters that provide top gear included in the price, effectively saving you the $1000's purchase you may use once a year.
You'd hate to lose your dream fish due to tackle failure. There is also something rewarding about using your own gear & seeing it catch fish.
Good luck asking the boss for a pay rise!!
Cheers David
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If a Penn Torque had been released 12 years earlier would it have been labelled the best performing reel on the market? Would it have attracted legions of followers & therefor picked up the fashion award by default???
There have been many bold releases by tackle companies. Just pondering style over substance and vice versa.
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Some wise words David.
Yes, it does seem GT fishing is a 'top end spend' style of angling at the moment. I'm sure like all things the technology in high end products will trickle down to less expensive gear. As long as sustainable fishing is practiced, it can only be good that is accessible to more people, cost of charters notwithstanding....
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Hi Patrick,
The conundrum is trying to find budget tackle to do a top end task! Quality does outlast inferior budget gear, fact. A crap reel is more likely to fail you, where as a carefully selected mid range rod like those mentioned GT Special, Berkley Viper etc will do the job & land decent fish, just weighing a few more grams or lacking a bit of finesse, might not work the chosen lure as sweetly as brand X.
GT fishing is pretty much the pinnacle of the angling sport, plus flavour of the moment appearing on all the covers of fishing mags / dvd's etc.. The evolution of the sport, tackle & ways of sharing information means that a serious GT adventure is top of the list for anglers of all ages & experiences.
To do such trips regularly be it in QLD as you are or around the globe, and being equipped with all the best equipment required for every occassion, is a rich mans sport pure and simple... A quiver of quality rods and reels for a week long trip could surpass the entire cost of the adventure itself!
There are charters that provide top gear included in the price, effectively saving you the $1000's purchase you may use once a year.
You'd hate to lose your dream fish due to tackle failure. There is also something rewarding about using your own gear & seeing it catch fish.
Good luck asking the boss for a pay rise!!
Cheers David
Succinct and spot on, David.
If I may add, GT fishing is the sport where a good fish will very quickly locate the weakest link in your equipment chain. From the hook end at the fish through to the ability of the angler and not forgetting the quality of the knots and joints.
I know from first hand experience, "You get what you don't pay for" when it comes to GT/Samson fishing equipment, these fish will take you and your gear to the edge of the envelope and then some.
I am not (really ;)) a tackle snob/junkie, I use mid priced gear for bream/whiting fishing because these fish will never test gear like a big GT would.
You can get away with scrimping on Bream/Snapper equipment, but you'll end up spending more if you try to go "budget" on GT stuff. Don't mean Stellas only but definitely not a "Dogtooth Terminator".
Cheers