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Daniel Chee

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Greetings Guys,
First of all, as a disclaimer, I am working in Shimano S.E.A. as a rod designer, and Caranx was one of the models I was working on, so do take what I say with a pinch of salt due to my affiliation.

Anyway, the long butt design rationale has been going on and on through several forums and now that Jon has brought it to this particuliar one, I guess I will do the explaination here again for the benefit of those who own the rod.

I've been often asked why the LC, DM and SM have such long butts before, and no, the answer is not bcos I am big sized  ;D  So heres to explain the rationale of this new pop rod design concept....

The benefits of the longer butt are twofold, firstly and obviously, it will be easier to cast and pop, which is what alot of us have to keep doing as fish strikes are not so frequent as we would like and alot of casting is usually involved between strikes. For imparting popper action, u can tuck the rod under ur armpits to generate bigger bloops, or you can simply take advantage of the longer butt to work the chugger while it is in the belt(if you are tired)

Secondly and more importantly is for the hookup and fight. When you first hook up, u need to set the hooks properly b4 transferring the rod to the belt, the long butt allows u to tuck the rod right past the armpits to give you much more positive hooksetting power.

Caranx Kaibutsu was designed for use with low mount belts, i.e belts that sit on the thigh, not those that sit above the "crotch"  region.

For fighting, try pulling on the rod with a lower mount belt, vs pulling conventional shorter butt rods with the usual high mount belt....measure the pressure on the angler vs the force applied on the fish and you will know why the butt is longer for use with low mounts. Alot of times with a high mount belt, the angler seems to put alot of force into the fight, but by the bending curve of the rod, you can see the translation of force to the fishes end is only very limited....

High mount belts originated from jigging and were simply doubled for use when popping. They are great for jigging to increase the angle between the line and the rod to utilise the stiffer lower end of the blank as the fight is down deep, but try that with popping rods with fish fighting closer to the surface and you will likely face a tip over feeling when you start utilising above 10kg of drag due to the length of the rod working against u, not with you; this time the leverage is working against you due to the rod length and the above mentioned angle has to be reduced for u to fully utilise the power of the rod on the fish.

Anyway, the 3 heavier rods with the long butts are specifically designed to be used on lower mount belts to avoid that kind of dangerous situation whilst still being able to apply above 10kg of drag easily throughout, and this has been pre-tested by many average sized asian anglers, not just big sized ones. Using a low mount with adequate butt length allows you to keep your knees bent and lean back rather than crouch forward when locked up.

To sum it up, if you are an angler who likes and uses only high mount belts only, u will find it hard to "tame" these rods as the forgrips will be out too far and probably Caranx is not the rod for you; you'd be better off sticking with other brands with a more conventional design. If you do own and fish a low mount belt and tend to fight fish in a more aggressive manner in a "lock and sock it them manner", then Caranx will be suitable for you.

It is a new design concept in popping, some might not understand the purpose of the design, but I hope you will give it a try urself to experience the benefits of using this design concept.


Regards
Daniel
Not just a surf and jig fisherman  8)











I think the idea is to have more leverage for casting, especially in the LP, PI and LC. Also it allows you to use medium to heavy standup gimbal setups with the rods, like you said, fishing with a lower gimbal setup. This way you're not using you back so much. Bend you knees to lift the rod.
Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 02:37:32 PM by Daniel Chee

67er

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Baseball bat generates tremendous speed with 'short handle'. Maybe there are more to be known out there than we care to find out. I was hoping to achieve best of both worlds (fighting and casting ergonomics) since my first post. Granted, popping is likely to be more of a casting game than fighting, but if we can improve our tackle and technic, why not?

Have a great day guys. :D

Brandon Khoo

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Daniel, thank you so much for taking the effort to post a reponse here. It is good for us to at least inderstand the rationale of why the rod was designed with such a long butt.I've fished a bit with a  Carpenter WV83XH which requires me to use a lower positioned gimbal belt and I've struggled to get used to it myself but to be fair, I know some people who prefer the lower mount.

I also have to acknowledge that the longer butt would be advantageous for casting.

Thanks again - we appreciate the post
If it swims; I want to catch it!

Daniel Chee

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Baseball bats can generate such high speeds due to its rigidity, short length and centre of mass at the top end. However this alone does not equate to good casting, otherwise you would be able to get good distances simply by mounting guides and a reelseat onto a baseball bat.



Baseball bat generates tremendous speed with 'short handle'. Maybe there are more to be known out there than we care to find out. I was hoping to achieve best of both worlds (fighting and casting ergonomics) since my first post. Granted, popping is likely to be more of a casting game than fighting, but if we can improve our tackle and technic, why not?

Have a great day guys. :D
Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 04:30:47 PM by Daniel Chee

Daniel Chee

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No worries Brandon,
Its always good to share and exchange information from anglers around the world.

Cheers
Dan



Daniel, thank you so much for taking the effort to post a reponse here. It is good for us to at least inderstand the rationale of why the rod was designed with such a long butt.I've fished a bit with a  Carpenter WV83XH which requires me to use a lower positioned gimbal belt and I've struggled to get used to it myself but to be fair, I know some people who prefer the lower mount.

I also have to acknowledge that the longer butt would be advantageous for casting.

Thanks again - we appreciate the post

Jon Li

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Hi guys ,

Yu Hock like short handle , Daniel likes long handle , I prefer standard length handle ..... , everyone is different but at least with long handle one can always cut the handle to suit .

I am with you Brandon , still not too happy with my SP710H SHP , apart from the obviously 2" longer handle over the standard length , it's too heavy due to aluminium extrusion being used for the extension but I heard this has been done away with graphite composite 1 pc. butt section .

Jon .
It's not what you don't know that gets you into trouble , it's what you know for sure that ain't so . Mark Twain .

67er

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 ;D Yu Hock likes short handle for the ease of whipping fish. Was referring to theory and then suddenly someone talks about using bat to fish ??? Why not use laundry pole then since the handle can be as long as you want???

Daniel Chee

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Pricesly what I was trying to mention.....baseball bats and laundry poles cannot be used effectively as rods ;D


;D Yu Hock likes short handle for the ease of whipping fish. Was referring to theory and then suddenly someone talks about using bat to fish ??? Why not use laundry pole then since the handle can be as long as you want???

67er

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Yah, let's keep the theory open and leave the bats and poles out. After all Shimano has been selling short handle rods for years. Isn't it shooting their own foot for saying it won't work?  8) 

Brandon Khoo

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It's good to have someone with your knowledge here, Dan. I hope we can look forward to further contributions from you on this forum.

It's interesting as with the design of this rod, Shimano have intentionally gone away from conventional thinking. You can't have innovation without innovative thinking so it will be interesting to get some feedback from guys who are actually using the rod.

I know with the Carpenter than the longer handled rods like the WV83 and SP710 are advertised as European models so the designed has obviously made them for a conventional gimbal belt. The disadvantage of the longer butt in the Carpenters is it adds a lot of weight. This is an issue the Caranx does not have.

Yu Hock, I am not familiar with any short handled GT rods that Shimano have released in the past?

If it swims; I want to catch it!

Daniel Chee

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Irregardless of short, medium or long it just depends on the preference and fighting style of the angler. So as long as you are comfortable using what you feel is match to you, its all good  :)



Yah, let's keep the theory open and leave the bats and poles out. After all Shimano has been selling short handle rods for years. Isn't it shooting their own foot for saying it won't work?  8) 

Daniel Chee

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Hi Brandon,
You guys are at the forefront of the popping sport, and if its anything to go by, it should be me who should be taking pointers from you guys.  :)

Anyway, I believe the European Carpenters are heavier than their "Asian" counterparts due to the extension made on the rear grip. I believe Jon has mentioned that this has been addressed and changed with the new rods. That being said, additional weight at the butt end is actually okie too as it can make the tip feel lighter.

Anyway, one of the reasons why the Kaibutsu is still able to maintain its weight even with an alu reelseat is due to the fact that the reelseat is actually bonded directly to the blank without any spacers. This is a stronger yet lighter construction with less chances of failure.

For Jons concern over the foregrip size, it takes considerable lesser effort if your fingers can go round the grip more.....if you do a chin up on a thick bar vs one that you can get your fingers around, you can immediately understand what I mean.

Cheers
Dan


It's good to have someone with your knowledge here, Dan. I hope we can look forward to further contributions from you on this forum.

It's interesting as with the design of this rod, Shimano have intentionally gone away from conventional thinking. You can't have innovation without innovative thinking so it will be interesting to get some feedback from guys who are actually using the rod.

I know with the Carpenter than the longer handled rods like the WV83 and SP710 are advertised as European models so the designed has obviously made them for a conventional gimbal belt. The disadvantage of the longer butt in the Carpenters is it adds a lot of weight. This is an issue the Caranx does not have.

Yu Hock, I am not familiar with any short handled GT rods that Shimano have released in the past?



67er

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It's good to have someone with your knowledge here, Dan. I hope we can look forward to further contributions from you on this forum.

It's interesting as with the design of this rod, Shimano have intentionally gone away from conventional thinking. You can't have innovation without innovative thinking so it will be interesting to get some feedback from guys who are actually using the rod.

I know with the Carpenter than the longer handled rods like the WV83 and SP710 are advertised as European models so the designed has obviously made them for a conventional gimbal belt. The disadvantage of the longer butt in the Carpenters is it adds a lot of weight. This is an issue the Caranx does not have.

Yu Hock, I am not familiar with any short handled GT rods that Shimano have released in the past?



Sorry if I wasn't clear. I NEVER thought short handle was possible for long stiff popping rods and that is why I enquired on shorter and softer popping blanks to entertain the thought of building one. To say that short handle can't cast far is like saying those short handle baitcast rods that shimano sells won't work. Casting is not always about pull and punch (like surf casting). To understand this go buy yourself two 5 1/2 bc blanks and build one with regular handle and one with long handle like your popping rod and you tell me which one cast further. To make things even more interesting build another one with pistol grip and you have it cast further than all two. What? Single hand cast further than both hands? Oh yes, if we open our mind like parachute it will work. It is all about having all the load that one CAN handle. Now please don't misunderstand that I say single hand 8ft popping rod is possible, it won't work even for a 7fter. Like I said it is all about all the load majority of us can handle. Obviously the taper, length and material of the blanks play a very important role, in the same context was why I had a hard time finding a short and softer popping rod in the first place. The idea is that simple but I have a bad feeling that I was misunderstood of saying all the long handle popping rods are a market failure. I am merely hoping to find a rod that IMO can be best of both worlds. I say it again popping is more about casting than fighting fish so the long handle length is undestandable. Hope this is clear for all. Can we move on now?       

   

Brandon Khoo

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But baitcasting blanks are built primarily for accuracy, not distance. For distance with a GT rod, I cannot see how you can possibly cast a short handled rod as far as a longer handled rod. It is a simple matter of leverage
If it swims; I want to catch it!

Jon Li

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Hi Dan ,

In my case , the foregrip size must suit one's hand , in tennis racket I use 4 1/2 grip and when I tried playing with my daughter's racquet , each time I do my stroke I wud twist the racquet due to too small a grip . My fingers are pressing against my hand and preventing me from gripping the racquet tightly .

The same with rod ( any kind ) , lest you want Brandon's " .... claw " syndrome , the grip must suit one's hand and I stand by my statement that Caranx Kaibutsu's foregrip is a little too small for me , it's no bigger than the butt grip of my bass rod . I am a smaller guy than you so your hand must be bigger than mine , I wonder how you can exert strong enough grip under substantial pressure from the big fish fighting for it's life ?

Jon . 
It's not what you don't know that gets you into trouble , it's what you know for sure that ain't so . Mark Twain .