Topwater Caranx Ignobilis: Giant Trevally (GT) => Tackle & Techniques => Topic started by: Brandon Khoo on April 28, 2007, 07:18:40 PM
Title: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Brandon Khoo on April 28, 2007, 07:18:40 PM
I've had a number of questions about the rig which I described that was developed during the week at Shoalwater and I have had some difficulty describing it to people so what I decided to do was rig a stickbait up so people could see what I meant. I sincerely doubt that noone has ever tried this before but I've never see it so I've decided to attribute it to the person who thought of it that week, Tim Baker.
As some of you would know, Nomad are very strongly of the view that single hooks hold much better than trebles. On the other hand, there is an acknowledgement that the hookup rate isn't as good. Also, while a single hook can be rigged to run very well off the tail, it doesn't work as well off the middle as the hook tends to point upwards.
I had some doubts about how effective this system would be - would the two single get tangled up? Would the lure swim effectively? What I can say is that while a few of us used this over the last three days, I saw enough to say I am absolutely convinced that this rig works brilliantly. As an example, one of the hardest fish to hook around is a long tom (who would want to?) but Damon hooked up continually with this rig.
The hooks system looks fantastic in the water as they seem to spread out when the lure is being retrieved.
I think I'll be rigging up a lot of my lures this way going forward. My only reservation is I think it is possible that a big fish may be hooked in a way whereby the two hooks are presed against each other and the split ring will bear most of the pressure. I sincerelyt doubt that a GT could straighten a SJ-51 so the split ring would be placed under enormous pressure. Anyway, we shall see!!
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: George Pang on April 29, 2007, 09:11:57 PM
How does the two hook rig affect the action? A had a wahoo rigged with trebles and it had no action, only after tim convinced me to go singles did the stickbait have the great rolling action. I would be interesting to see them side by side.
George
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Wong Kai Zhee on April 30, 2007, 04:32:13 AM
side track a little, but i am a little worried for the fish.
seems like if a fish broke off w such a set up, the multiple of hooks can easily restrict its ability to feed and breathe. most likey, the escaped fish will die.
same f the double hook rig used in skirts.
perhaps doing away with the middle hooks will be more GT friendly.
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Brandon Khoo on April 30, 2007, 08:39:11 PM
George - it looked really bloody good in the water. The wahoo I was fishing next to it with the big recorder didn't look anywhere enar as good in terms of its action. I wonder why that is the case? Does the treble act like a rudder?
Wong - I agree with your comment but we were basically fishing barbless by crushing the barbs on the hooks.
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Brandon Khoo on October 30, 2007, 10:15:51 PM
I've been continuing to experiment with the Baker rig as I beleive this really is an excellent way to rig stickbaits and poppers. One of the problems we have found with the standard rig is that there is a tendency for one of the hooks to turn around. While generally it tends to right itself in the water, it is a bit annoying. I have experimented tying some of the hooks to prevent it from happening and this is what I've come up with. I will test this out on my few trips but I am pretty sure it will work well.
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Rob Ciotucha on October 30, 2007, 10:26:41 PM
Hi Brandon in the top picture are they Decoys? Ive got a couple packs but the biggest i could get was 8/0 is there any bigger?
Cheers Rob
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Brandon Khoo on October 30, 2007, 10:40:20 PM
yes Rob, they are. I think 8/0 is the biggest
Jigging Sergeants then SJ-51s then SJ-41s
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Chris Young on October 31, 2007, 05:51:12 PM
G'Day Brandon , I may be wrong but I think decoys go up to 9/0 & 10/0 but they are almost the same price as big recorders etc ::) Cheers Chris
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Brandon Khoo on November 05, 2007, 09:25:33 PM
I found out today that the Cutlass goes up to 10/0. I don't know about the Jigging Sergent. I can't imagine the Jigging Sergents would be the same price as a recorder treble though! :o
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Greg Burt on November 05, 2007, 10:06:52 PM
Brandon, I can only find Sergeants to 8/0 at $5.00 each and the Cutlass to 10/0 at $6.50 each in Brisbane
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Chris Young on November 06, 2007, 05:56:07 PM
G'Day Greg & Brandon , 10/0 cutlass are the ones I was refering to , I also get them for $6.50 each. If you Baker rig them = $13.00 , more than top trebles :o but a lot more versatile on lures where weight is an issue & I think would also be much better hookup due to larger gape
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Brandon Khoo on November 06, 2007, 08:38:09 PM
yep, two Cutlass' will be more than a Gamakatsu Recorder. That's expensive!
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Chris Young on November 06, 2007, 09:50:49 PM
Do the sergeants have welded eyes ? . I was thinking of running baker cutlass rig on belly & sergeant rig on back ( opposite eye = max exposure!) What do you think ???
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Brandon Khoo on November 06, 2007, 10:04:17 PM
no, the sergeants do not have a welded eye. I don't think it'd hurt to try. I'll give this a try on my next trip (if I remember) ;D
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Luke Wyrsta on November 07, 2007, 07:24:19 PM
I've said it before - Decoy Cutlas JS-2 = Awesome hook
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Greg Burt on November 07, 2007, 11:04:51 PM
Check out the 1/2 page Ugly Stick advert in Oct Queensland Fishing Monthly, has an interesting capture on a Nomad Wahoo, Baker rigged underneath and a Jobu on the rear, it works LOL ;D ;D ;D I'll get it scanned and sent to my computer so I can post it [I hope]!! :-\
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Greg Burt on November 07, 2007, 11:18:20 PM
Got it ;D
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Brandon Khoo on November 08, 2007, 07:14:00 AM
I've never seen someone do that with Jobus before. If that lure was rigged on the Odyssey, you would have been pissed if the shark too it - $65 for the stickbait and $20 in hooks! ;D
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Hal Harvey on November 08, 2007, 09:15:14 AM
That's my hand! and the catch was on an Ugly Stik too, not by me.
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: lonhro on November 08, 2007, 09:36:25 AM
What Ugly stik can cast and work one of those wahoo lures ???
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Brandon Khoo on November 08, 2007, 12:59:37 PM
in that case, only $24 for the lure and $6 for the hooks! ;D
That's my hand! and the catch was on an Ugly Stik too, not by me.
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Aaron Concord on November 15, 2007, 08:29:01 PM
When I filmed for 7 weeks on Odyseey last year, the evolution went from trebles to Owner Jobu singles...I saw (and filmed!) enough big GT's that missed the 6 points of 2 big Decoy or GT Recorder trebles just as often as the singles...the trebles pulled out more often or if you caught the fish, they damaged the fish more than singles. The singles were a more secure hookup and anglers tended to fish with more confidence when they saw their hard won fish come to the boat instead of falling off prematurely. Problem is that poppers and stick baits require balance and some just won't work without trebles. If you can make your popper bloop as well or your stick bait "walk the dog" with singles, do it... We were using rubber bands to keep the front hook facing down on the wahoo 150's...it's however you can keel the lure, maintain balance & prevent the hooks fouling during the cast.. Aaron.
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Greg Burt on November 15, 2007, 09:32:30 PM
Aaron, if you used the two hook 'Baker Rig' on the front, wouldn't they lay horizontally to each side, as shown in Brandons pic? I have been a firm believer in single/dbl single hooks for 20yrs, on most lures even metal slugs, once hooked they stick.
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Aaron Concord on November 15, 2007, 09:56:00 PM
Greg, We were using just a single Jobu on the front & rear. I have never bothered to run 2 singles off the belly or tail....their appears merit for the belly rig to be a double rig to help with keeling the lure and if a wahoo has a crack at it as there is more exposure of the hooks....I'd need to rig them up and see which combo gives the best action.....the less hooks the better I reckon. Singles go in better since they are unimpeded by anything else.....you would need a trip like Shoalwater, Wreck or Kenn to get numbers up to get some stats as well....who's up for R & D !!!!!
Aaron.
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Peter Lowe on November 15, 2007, 11:01:32 PM
Oh sure Aaron,
Next you will tell us you recently caught a 40kg in THE back yard.................. ;D
Spose you have film of that to huh......
Well done......Aaron's PB[
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Brandon Khoo on November 16, 2007, 07:41:54 AM
we've done a fair bit of experimentation already this year with this rig since Shoalwater. I think I've pretty much settled with the baker off the belly and a single Jobu 9/0 or Fisherman Shiden 13/0 off the back - for a stickbait. I still prefer a treble off the belly of a chugger with a single on the back and two trebles on a pencil. For an Orion Flapper, two big Shout 7/0 assist hooks
I really don't think there is any way to establish conclusively that one set-up works better than the other. There are just so many variables and you've got to go with what works for you and what you're confident with. A lot of the guys lose fish on trebles because they don't drive the hooks home and then they don't keep enough tension on the line through the fight. For me, I feel (I can't prove) that the most secure hookup comes from a single assist hook. For example, I've never dropped a fish when hooked on a Flapper before.
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Aaron Concord on November 17, 2007, 10:29:04 PM
Brandon, The variables surrounding getting each lure balanced correctly is bad enough isn't it!! Filming Kenji Konishi and his mates, I noticed a real problem with pulled hooks on the big GT Recorder & Decoy 8/0-10/0 trebles it was troubling....they have faith in the action of the lure with trebles since it was DESIGNED with trebles... Personally, I reckon any single is going to hold better and have a heap less trouble with the torsion that is caused on a treble hook....look at the guage they have to make trebles that won't bend on 100-130lb braid...it DOES require a VERY good hook set and not just the fish running against the pressure of the heavy drag to make sure they go in. I still fish trebles on certain lures purley because the lure works better with trebles....that's the only reason. Not because more hook points are better at hooking fish. Or more improtantly, better at staying connected.
Peter, Your not jealous...are you!! :) :) :) :) :) :) :) Thank you for letting me have a crack at one of your pets!!
Aaron.
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Chris Young on November 27, 2007, 06:09:49 PM
Did some testing on lure/hook combinations on sunday & have to agree with Brandon that the Baker rigged hooks need to be tied in some way or they will tangle & be a real pain ita, but running singles (baker rig) broadens the scope of a lot of lures that could not usualy cope with large trebles, I think it might be worth the effort to tie some together for the next run ;D
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Chris Young on November 30, 2007, 08:10:57 PM
Think I've come up with a good alternative to tieing the hooks together ,Use a small rubber band ( from local news paper) to bind the hooks together along the shank (starting from the hook bend towards the eye) .Seems to hold hooks in place pretty well with the added bonus that a GT or similar sized fish could break it should if you lose the fish & it happens to be hooked in top & bot of jaw ::) . I know we all want to land these fish & release them unharmed but when you get bricked its good to know they can shake the armor & be there for your next mission ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Hal Harvey on December 01, 2007, 11:32:33 AM
I think one point that is maybe a bit missed is that the swivels & split rings way of putting singles on GT lures is desirable where you run into spaniards, wahoo and to a lesser extent dogtooth, but if you're only fishing for GTs you're probably better off using assist cord for the flexibility. Two singles on cord is a pretty deadly combination - usually the fish ends up with two hooks latched onto it.
In the instance where you do want all-metal and want to use back-to-back hooks, we link the hooks with a small loose cable tie, as per the pic at the bottom of this page: www.bluewater.net.au/catalog/article_info.php?articles_id=110
That works perfectly. The lure illustrated there is a Black Jack Ulua stickbait with Owner SJ-41TG 9/0s, #10 Owner ring on the belly, #9 on the tail.
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Greg Burt on December 15, 2007, 10:51:57 AM
I have used a bit of gamefishing techno for securing the Baker rigged hooks, by using a bit of heat shrink on the shafts keeps the hooks from swinging around and you can make it as firm or loose as you like and it will breakaway under pressure So far no problems in popping but hope to stick a GT on one tomorrow to really test it ::).
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Chris Young on December 15, 2007, 01:55:46 PM
Good Idea Greg, I like the fact that they can break away if needed, I also notice you use anode tape (don't know the real name) on your hooks , do you think it stops the hooks from corroding ? Cheers Chris
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Cam Foley on December 15, 2007, 04:23:04 PM
Very nice Mr Greg ,good to see you have been busy in the shed of tackle.
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Greg Burt on December 15, 2007, 08:47:54 PM
The Zinc anode tape definitely works on trolling chemically sharpened hooks Chris, so has to benefit the life of jigging and popping hooks as well. ;D
Cam, Casey commented today how the mess is getting worse in the tackle dept, as I keep going in to tidy it up but get sidetracked and start rigging, spooling or fitting something ::), 'OH' and playing with the new 'Nirai' Santa accidentally dropped in the shed instead of under the Xmas tree :-X ;).
PS: Christened the Nirai with two small Kingies last Tuesday off Moreton with Duncan on Bill Corten's boat ;D, couldn't christen the Zenaq on a GT though :(.
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Cam Foley on December 16, 2007, 05:50:10 AM
Santa is good for that kind of stuff ,woke up the other day and found a new Ocea Jigger 5000p in my room with an upgraded drag.he he he Congrats on getting out for a fish ,did the little kings mannage to put a bend on the Nirai?
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Greg Burt on December 16, 2007, 06:56:37 AM
Small one [bend], off to blast the cape now, fingers X.
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Brett Carter on December 21, 2007, 11:37:20 AM
I have a question about the trailing hook. On the stickbaits i have bought they come with a swivel already attached to the tail end of the lure, so i ad my split to the swivel and then my hook to the split... easy! But when rigging a popper which doesn't come with swivel already attach, do most people ad a swivel on the tail end? That means it would have the wire tail end loop, splip ring, swivel, split ring and then the single hook. All seem a bit much to me ??? These pics are how i have got some of them rigged at the moment. Sorry about the crap photos.
Title: Re: The Baker Rig - rigging single hooks to run on each side on the lure
Post by: Brandon Khoo on December 21, 2007, 06:25:49 PM
Brett, I personally do not like the rear hook trailing from so far back and as a result, would not use a swivel. My preference would be to rig an short assist hook using one or two split rings (depending on whether you can turn the rear eye or not)