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Topwater Caranx Ignobilis: Giant Trevally (GT) => Tackle & Techniques => Topic started by: Shane Hartstone on November 26, 2009, 11:51:41 AM
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Hi Guys, with summer fast aproaching New Zealand, the dream of a 120kg striped marlin on a stick bait has returned. I'm just wondering what peoples rigging arrangement would be, particulary in regards to swivels in front of your hooks.
I've seen rigging videos in regards to trolling stickbaits for marlin, but I'm casting.I'm looking at SJ51's on the belly, and a jobu on the tail. Should I have swivels in there?
Cheers, Shane.
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Never done it but thinking it through I think the setup would be similar to the trolling setup wouldn't it? The swivel on the front is to stop the twisting or spinning of the lure. The swivel on the rear therefore can only be to drop the hook back further off the rear of the lure as an torque/twist on the components will be handled by the front swivel.
What about taking the through wire out and rigging it sliding style, could that work? Unsure if it would effect the swimming action? May help after hook up though as that's a big weight to have swinging around if the stripey is jumping around.
To that end you'll be wanting to run barbs i'd say, the SJ51s are a bulky hook - the "cutting point" is dubious to say the least (i think any way). Personally i'd sharpen the point with the dremel and while you're at it knock the sides off the "cutting point", help with the penetration but keep the strength of the solid Sj51. Saying that isn't there a 13/0 Shiden now which is closer to the profile of the SJ41 but strength of the SJ51? That could be totally wrong...grasping at the depths of my memory.
More questions raised than answers sorry ;) Good luck with the hunt!
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Saying that isn't there a 13/0 Shiden now which is closer to the profile of the SJ41 but strength of the SJ51? That could be totally wrong...grasping at the depths of my memory.
More questions raised than answers sorry ;) Good luck with the hunt!
The Fisherman Siden in 12/0 or 13/0 are brilliant short shanked hooks for rigging on GT sized poppers/sticks. the 13/0 is a very big hook. As you say Warwick, similar in profile to the SJ41 but I think a little more 'round' and perhaps a little more robust but I doubt whether you you would say it is as strong as the SJ51, It may be fairer to say the siden sits in between the 41 and 51. I must get a vernier and check thickness of the SJ41 vs the siden just for my own curiosity.
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whats wrong with the sj 41's? do you guys think they will straighten on a marlin? You could imagine the ammount of pressure requred to set a sj51, just want your opinion on wheter the 41's are up to the task.
The issue with marlin on stickbaits/poppers is they will jump, when they jump they shake their heads and alot of the time this throws the lure and hooks off the bill or mouth.
To get around this you may consider buying some assist chord and tying some assist hooks at a length to suit the lure, that way, there's a bit of play allowed when the stickbait is violently getting jolted from the fish's mouth.
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the sj 41's are definately up to the task, I use them when rigging trolling lures.
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Good point on the hooks Gavin. I'm filling a stella 20000FA with PE5, and looking at about 10kg of drag. Fishing will be done out of a trailer boat, so chasing the fish will be an option.
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At 10kg of drag I would think SJ41's will be up to the job. If you think you need to run heavier try Mustad 10874BLN's - very, very strong hook. Heavier than an SJ41 but not as evil as an SJ51....the 10/0 is a bit larger than the 11/0 owners.
Tight lines Dave
PS - You can now get the SJ41's in a 13/0. I think www.plat.co.jp (http://www.plat.co.jp) have some.
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It was a solid GT (~40kg) but you can see what it did to the SJ41. Will depend on drag settings etc but you are talking 120kg of marlin. (hook in amongst lures in the middle)
edit: i may have shot myself in the foot...that bent 41 was a 30kg GT on that Gunz Tailwalk...the 40kg gt was caught on that dogtooth with the bent SJ51 ::) :D
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I don't think you will be able to bully a marlin the same as a GT, thats why I think the lighter drag, and let it do its thing. The more it jumps, the more chance of something coming free. A good hook set to begin with will be very important.
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Have a look at the latest edition of Bluewater & you will find a very good photo of a stickbait rigged with an intresting looking twin hooked assist cord system for sailfish.Can"t see why it could not be scaled up & improved a bit for a stripy.Good luck on your mission.
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Shane, with all respect to our forum members, you might be on the wrong forum for this and it might be a good idea to see if you can get some information on how the marlin experts rig up and the type of terminals they use, particularly the hooks. This is going to be the most important aspect of your rig, I think. I wonder whether the heavy jigging hooks like the SJ-51 are suitable for marlin.
I know I recently found the way in which poppers are rigged for sailfish quite illuminating, especially the hooks used. Actually, I was astounded!
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I think what Brandon says is pretty valid, I have only done a little marlin fishing but from seeing how important the hook set is and how tricky that can be when fishing lures, I think you will want a finer gauge hook that can slide in nice and easily...you shouldn't be tooooo worried about straightening one, as mentioned above you don't really bully a marlin the way you (try to) do with GT...
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Shane, with all respect to our forum members, you might be on the wrong forum for this...
I know I recently found the way in which poppers are rigged for sailfish quite illuminating, especially the hooks used. Actually, I was astounded!
hence my disclaimer, ;) :D :D
Never done it but...
What hooks and rigs were used for sailfish Brandon?
Please post up when you find out Shane, not sure if i'll ever be in a position to give it a crack but am pretty interested to find out.
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Brandon, the reason why I ask on this forum is that 98% of marlin fishermen don't have the knowledge about throwing poppers or stick baits, let alone at a marlin. In my opinion there is a lot more angling skill involves in catching fish on casting lures, rather than trolled lures. Hence Im asking the guys on here for any info. A GT fisherman would have more chance of marlin on a casting rod than a marlin fisherman who has never throw or rigged a popper.
The hooks will have to be thin enough to penetrate with a light drag, but strong enough to hold the fish on the leader.
Here in New Zealand on calm days we are sometimes lucky enough to come across a marlin "tailing" on the surface. This is when they are semi resting, and all you see is a big sickle-like tail sticking out of the water( not to be confused with a large Mako shark). The theory is to cast a stick bait and drag it back past its nose.
Alternativly casting at a bait ball. Either way, I think your heart rate would be going a million miles an hour!
I'm still undecided on a twisted or single strand leader. Still a month or two to day dream.
You can see in this photo that you will want to get the tail hook quite far back in the mouth for a good hook set. This fish wan caught on a trolled surface lure (so it doesn't count :))
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I have nil experience for casting at marlin, but done a little for sailfish, hooks used as bakers on both belly and tail were Oshanassey (SIC) long shanked types, you might find the sj41/51 a little too thick and short, unless rigged as an assist. If they are anyway like sails, they'd be bastards to hookup! Getting a strike is the easy bit. Good luck with your endeavours. And do post some pics when u land one.
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The hooks used for sailfish are primarily saltwater flyfishing hooks like Owner Akis
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We have an up and coming trip to Fiji and although our primary target will be GT's, I do plan on having a go at some Sails and Marlin. I've been into chasing Marlin for a few years now and have come up with a game plan.
Here's my strategy...
To find a beakie... either look for them as Shane mentioned, or tease them up to the boat, then switch them onto a "cast" Stickbait or Popper.
I have searched for a good "marlin" hook and a has already been mention, you will really struggle to set a heavy gauged hook into a marlin's mouth. The closest hook I've found to suit my mission is a Mustard Hoodlum in a 10/0. I believe that Owner Jobu's, the old Pakula Katana's or the new Dojo hooks would also suit. For the tail hook, I've rigged it with about 3 - 4" of 200lb 49 strand wire to gaurd against abrassion. Same hooks again on the belly set up as a baker rig or a head assit rig again using the same hook (will be experimenting with the 2 methods).
The leader will be single strand mono attached to suit, ie, 200lb for small Blacks/Stripies/Sails and 300lb for Blues (yes I know... big call attempting a Blue on spin tackle ;)).
The rods will be similar to what you use for Tuna, as Marlin are just another Pelagic fish... not a Reef Dweller. I will be using a BC75MH with a Stella 10000SW with approx 400m of 50lb Tufline as the lighter outfit, and a TBL711/35RF with a Stella 18000SW (20K spool) spooled with approx 400m of 80lb Tufline. I believe that in most cases this is ample line as you should be using the boat to chase the fish down. Drags will be set @ 8 - 12kg and only adjusted if absolutely needed.
Anyway, I've put a fair bit of thought into this and fingers crossed, it all comes together. I am certainly no expert and am open to further suggestions.
Note - none of the above is IGFA legal... it's purely for fun ;D
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Robert, you have been doing your homework, when do you leave, & who will you be fishing with over there?
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We have been toying around with Gamakatsu Sl12's in 10/0(SWF hook). We tried to break one the other day, but couldnt do it. They are quite long in the shank too, is this an advantage or a disadvantage? Bloody sharp tho.
Robert, and lure in particular you have picked out?
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G'day Shane
The SL12's are a brilliant hook... In my opinion, they are one of the best hooks of all time for setting in a Marlin's mouth, however, they are only really rated for up to 15kg game outfits. I do know of a few guys that will push the drag up to around 7kg, but I certainly wouldn't push the hook any harder than that as it will bend or flex enough for the fish to spit the lure.
I'm not 100% sure on which stickbaits I'll be using... although I'm pretty keen to try out the new Bobara's in 50 and 100g sizes
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Being a marlin junkie among other things, I have heard Gamakatsu have done samples of 'hyperwire' SL12S fly hooks which should improve their rust resistance dramatically, plus bolster the strength.
Mustad are also redoing the 76LGS in a better carbon steel in the not-so-distant future I was told by a rep 2 days ago.
Both of these hooks, Pakula Dojo's or Cutlass's rigged as assist rigs or take the wire out of the lure to let it slide up the leader with a single assist out the bum, those are some of my thoughts.
Stick to finer gauge hooks with a turned in hook point.
Teasing and switching the marlin to the stickbait will work.
I reckon try and let the fish turn like we do when fly fishing so the hook/s end up in the corner of the jaw rather than trying to penetrate bill!!!!!
My 2 bobs.......
Aaron.
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you just wont know with marlin, are they gonna come up and scoff the whole lure down their throat, or are they gonna show interest, sit behind the lure and swipe at it with their beaks? either way, the lure needs to be able to connect- in the corner of its mouth or on the bill, personally i think if the hook is just on the bill, it would get thrown off quiet easily on a jump.
what about leader lengths? how long u reckon is sufficient? definatley needs to be longer than the fish i.e- 3m+ because the tail would definatly damage the braid, any thoughts on minimum leader length?
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Robert, great minds think alike. I'm thinking a 150g bobara, in green. The main bait fish at home is a green Mackeral, and this lure looks the goods.
Every marlin will take the lure different, when to set the hook will be very important. If you stuff it up, you will be huddled in the cabin in the foetal position.
Gavin, you just have to prey that the marlin will hoover the lure whole. Im thinking at least 3 meters of 100lb twisty, to a one meter fluro 200lb bite leader.
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Shane,
The current bluewater mag shows the Rapala sub-walk 15, the jigging hook set up is a Decoy double asst DJ-83, they come in 3 sizes and they are as follows.
DJ-83 #M - 50kg B/S
DJ-83 #L - 75kg B/S
DJ-83 #LL - 75kg B/S
Seening that the lure is 150mm long i wouold go for the DJ-83 #LL.
Just remember that this is not IGFA compliant.
hope this helps
Cheers
Ashley Cotter
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Ok I have nil experience in this matter but i'll throw it out there,
has anyone considered string instead of hooks? I am not sure on what type of string you are meant to use but the theory is that it wraps around the bill when the fish swipes.
Actually thinking a bit more, that might be hopeless to cast ::)
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Both of these hooks, Pakula Dojo's or Cutlass's rigged as assist rigs or take the wire out of the lure to let it slide up the leader with a single assist out the bum, those are some of my thoughts.
Good call on the Cutlass Aaron! I didn't even think of using that... definately a nice hook shape for Billfish.
Shane... one of the main reasons I am sticking to 50-100g lures is that... the heavier the lure, the greater the chance the Marlin will throw the hooks with it's violent head shakes. Having said that, the lure still needs to match the rod so you can cast it effectively... althought you may not need to cast far if you tease the fish up to the transom! ;)
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Gavin,
You are right, every marlin species has a personality to it, let alone the individuals.
From what I have seen on sailfish in Oz, if one turns on a cast lure, slowing down and imparting a 'dying baitfish' while retrieving at a slower pace seems to get them to hook up better.
All of the marlins, spearfish and sailfish are teaseable with hookless teasers, though smaller schooled up blacks, stripes and sailfish are 3 species that are found close enough to shore and school up enough to find in quantities to try casting at tailing fish or fish balling up bait on the surface.
My usual leader length for chasing billfish on conventional tackle is to have the length roughly the fish length. 3 meters would be fine for casting. Longer if you can still cast alright, to help control them boatside.
Robert,
;D
They are a versatile hook!
The Dojo & Cutlass are pretty damn similar too!
Warwick,
There are still some places over in central America where using 'twine' to grip the denticles on a billfish's bill is still used, though busted off fish have a slim chance of feeding again....it works, though it isn't my cuppa tea!
Aaron.
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There are still some places over in central America where using 'twine' to grip the denticles on a billfish's bill is still used, though busted off fish have a slim chance of feeding again....it works, though it isn't my cuppa tea!
Aaron.
Hmm that's not good then, hooks it is.
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since on the topic of marlin on threadline gear, what leader arrangement do people use? length? i was thinking either a single strand 9ft 150lb black magic supple or twisted 80lb (160lb) twisted 8ft with a 3 foot 150-200lb leader outside of the guides for a bit more invisability.
for line i was going to put pe6 on a stella 10k with either a 16k or 20k spool,
do you guys thing the rig is up to the task? can you advise me on any flaws?
cheers
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Warwick,
Funny enough, I thought the 'twine' method had a huge merit in areas where you find a mass amount of billfish which you do not want to harm any more than necessary. When I realized the mouth binding problem with fish that were lost with the whole rig I figured one or two fine gauge hooks were a better option after all.
Gavin,
Sounds like a terrific leader for billfish in the 50-100kg range to me.
If the water is clear or the marlin/sailfish are sub 50kg models then I'd only drop the leader strength to attract more bites with the lighter leader.
The leader length you propose is fine.
How are you attaching the 3 foot bite leader? Crimps or knots?
I'd be crimping it myself.
Having additional line for these open water runners is wise.
I like the fact you are looking at more capacity.
It comes in very handy if you end up with 2 billfish on at once!
Aaron.
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Gavin, I too am looking at a stella 10000FA with a 20K spool, with PE5. Two rod options, my stickbait rod (zenaq fokeeto 83/7) or a 7ft 20-50lb calstar, if switch baiting.
For the trace I would be looking at a hard leader, rather than a soft leader. When marlin wrap themselves in the leader, their scales scuff the leader pretty bad. A 3ft bite leader will be good, but the rest of the trace can still be critically damaged.
Was on the water yesterday, temp was 17.2 degrees... A few more weeks and the striped Marlin will be in range!
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arron, was thinking of attaching the bite leader via a 4 turn uni to a quality swivel, not confident in my crips to be using them unfortunatley, but a crimp or nail knot might be the only option if im tying heavy fc for the bite leader.
Shane, in your expereince a softer leader like black magic 150 supple wont cut it? reason for going soft is for castability more than anything. If you guys have shredded 150 soft leader then i might just go the tougher stuff at the expence of a bit of casting trouble. from what i understand you can either switch bait when they come up behind the spread or cast to them sunning themselves, so casting will have get its fair share of a go.
tight lines
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Gavin
This is what was left of 150lb bite trace after a beaky b1tch slapped me on a Wahoo 125 stickbait, double Baker rigged, in Madagascar... Stella 10K with a 20K spool, 500 metres of YGK Ultra PE 6, matched to a DJ83MH... 100lb casting leader single strand into 1metre of 150lb ( 1.2 mm ).... 300 odd metres of nearly pulling me off the back of the boat, which was an open dive boat with no transom,drag at about 12 kilos or more, she went airborne for about the 6th and final time into the sunset and left me with shaky knees and this:
(http://i50.tinypic.com/2qbdwgm.jpg)
I guess she might have gone 100 to 150 kilos..... never really wanted to chase billfish before... as a kid growing up, it was always a "rich mans game" and even since, the idea of pulling lures all day and then sitting in a chair had no appeal to me... skippering and wire man duties are a completely different story of course....
But the rush this fish gave me was beyond belief, and DEFINTELY something I want to do again....
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thanks for the feedback Andre, I would of thought 150 would have sufficed as thats what they use on overhead gear but considering braid has no stretch and possibly fishing more drag maybe put more strain on the leader? would you mind telling me what method you used to connect the 150 to the 100?
Cheers
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Gavin - The above was my first, and only run in with a Beaky on popping gear, so please don't take the above as anything more than an observation from a single instance in my experience.... I came off second best in the encounter, so perhaps my points above shouldn't be considered advice of any kind, but rather an observation of sorts... ;D 8)
I too would have thought 150 would have been plenty... but as you mentioned, with braid and drag settings, and perhaps just being unlucky in the way the fish was hooked and how the leader ran along the bill as it was chafed for at least 30 cm above the breaking point as well.... possibly bill wrapped? Who knows...
I justed used a regular Double Uni to join the 100lb to the 150lb.... had no problems with this connection at all...
As has been mentioned previously in this thread I think, perhaps using a hard mono bite trace would serve you better... maybe 1m to 1.2m, or whatever you are comfortable with hanging out of the tip when casting, then match that to soft mono for the reast of your leader to aid in casting... would give you decent abrasion protection, without having to go to a higher strength bite trace.... for the record I was using soft mono....
I also think heavy drag settings are a no-no.... trying to stop a greyhounding Billfish on its first run, especially if its going airborne, is a recipe for heartbreak I reckon... You'bve got plenty of string on hand, so my advice is to make use of it, and get the skipper on the helm to get you heading towards the fish until she settles down, then go to work on the drag.
Cheers
Nepps
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Quote from Andre van Wyk:
I also think heavy drag settings are a no-no.... trying to stop a greyhounding Billfish on its first run, especially if its going airborne, is a recipe for heartbreak I reckon... You'bve got plenty of string on hand, so my advice is to make use of it, and get the skipper on the helm to get you heading towards the fish until she settles down, then go to work on the drag.
Andre, 100+kg of marlin will certainly rip more line off than any GT, so you're right on your quoted tactics.
Stick to 5-8kg and be prepared to give chase when you have more than 100m of string out.
The lighter drag will help prevent leader damage and pulled kooks.
To put it into perspective, on a 'standard' marlin outfit that I use with a 'strike drag' of 12kg is a 37kg bent butt rollered rod with a Tiagra 80W strapped to it.
The leader is usually 300-400lb hard billfish designed mono, since my drag settings may vary from 12-18kg during a fight.
This is on blue, striped and black marlin in the 100-300kg range.
The lure leader may require replacing after every fish. Sometimes you can get a couple big fish on a leader though I prefer to have new leader & avoid failure.
On 8kg 'standard' gear, my leader is 100-150lb, fight drag is 2.6-4kg and the bill knocks the leader around at these pressures!
This is aimed at little blacks, sailfish and junior burger sized stripies under 75kg.
On casting gear, I'd keep the hooks fine, the 'bite' leader hard and set the drag at 5-8kg.
Try your luck on the smaller sized fish before casting a 300mm stick bait at 200+kg of blue marlin!
Brock....I know you still want to do this so get a spool that holds 1000m of PE 6. You can doooo eit!
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Aaron,
I am not going to say much on this topic. I will just read & take it all in.
Might get to try this next year somewhere (if you know what i mean).
Keep up the chat guys I'm trying my best to let it all sink in.
PS: Aaron I will sort a reel out for this soon & hopefully get the larger spool someday soon) What do you suggest for reel & line?)