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Topwater Caranx Ignobilis: Giant Trevally (GT) => Tackle & Techniques => Topic started by: Kasey Leong on December 07, 2010, 04:15:37 AM
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The thread 'Preferred Leader Material' has raised some discussion about bite leaders so I thought I'd start a separate thread. I don't think there's been one on this before.
In the past I've experimented with having a bite leader and the most apparent trade-off is the extra connection using crimps. Naturally, this represents an extra risk of failure, and I have always had more confidence in my knots than in my crimps (possibly due to practice and experience). Mackerel also seem to like snipping at crimps. Finally, as Brandon has once pointed out, a thick bite leader may be more visible for more delicate lures like stickbaits - although I've noticed even Konishi-san uses some kind of bite leader system as well.
The advantage of having a thick 300lb bite leader of course is the extra protection it offers should a huge GT swallow your popper whole. A really big fish can easily suck on a person's head so its very likely that something in the >50kg class could end up chewing on the leader. This has never happened to me before though, despite hooking the odd big fish. In fact, I have always felt comfortable using 170 or 200lb Super Stealth directly to my poppers.
Having said that, I notice that many experienced GT anglers commonly include bite leaders as part of their system. For areas where big fish are very likely, do you feel that bite leaders are necessary? If so, would you prefer crimping on a separate >300lb single strand, or simply doubling back the 170/200lb leader and crimping it up the mainline?
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My only experience with bite leaders is when using a twisted leader. The end where the two leader ends meet is twisted back along the length of the twisted leader for around 30cm and then three nail knots are used to hold it in place. I can see how this would afford some extra protection from GT wear and tear. It does stiffen up that end section of line so it may have an effect on the action of more delicate lures (stickbaits) but I haven't noticed it.
In the case of a single strand leader, doubling back the leader doesn't seem effective does it? It doesn't double the bite resistance as it will only take one of the sections being comprimised for the system to fail right?
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I don't usually bother with a bite tippet but you can double a single back effectively with 2 crimps! one down low on the swivel before twisting and the second to finish off, just need to make sure the bottom one swages properly so it doesn't cut the leader at the swivel. this will hold most times even if one strand is compromised.
Make sure you use the right size crimps and learn how hard to crimp them. I only use double sleeve figure 8 brass ;)
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It's all horses for courses Kasey.
I tend to use them wherever possible, but also note that behaviour and activity of a fish and the environment they are in.
I find better general hook-up ratios with stickbaits. The actions are more delicate and precise, so I want to be able to maintain this action - this is a scenario where I would opt to reduce my bite leader as much as possible, if not any at all. Therefore I would stick to 170 - 200lb+ max shock leader only. I am depending on a more efficient GT strike, that is clean and outside the mouth.
For general popping, I don't think it makes much difference at all. It's not often that a GT rises to a popper and doesn't hit it because of the a visible bite leader, they usually are hitting poppers with gusto or simply aren't switch on to a popping presentation - cue, stickbaits and pencils. The popping action is so loud, boistrous and imposing - this fires up the GT resulting in a rather aggresive display of destruction - resulting in messy hook-ups more often than not, or complete swallowing of the lure. Cue - bite leader.
I definitely enjoy the insurance of a bite leader for popping, not so much stickbaits. Deeper water popping leaves you prone to Mackerel and Wahoo! So, you have at least a little bit of insurance that you may get your lure back if it gets knicked! Otherwise, there's no real solution to the razor gang, luckily, my experience with bite-offs arising from terminal tackle has been very minimal. They are usually after the lure so you tend to get the snip right at the connection, rather than shrink-tubed crimp connection.
When sharp, big trebles, sand-paper throats, big teeth, tail scutes and general wear and tear is around - bite leaders can be a good thing for XOS fish! Fish under 40kg, I would avoid this altogether, unless i'm fishing a very light shock leader.
Kasey: I prefer to crimp a seperate segment, this way I can choose fluoro or an even heavier class of leader material rather than be limited by doubling the leader. Plus, if you get a snip on the doubled area you start to shorten your shock leader very quickly!
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In the past, I have seen heavy mono and fluorocarbon cut through by massive GT's.
I had seen enough failures to add an arms length of 120-150lb single strand wire in front of big poppers to prevent bite offs.
The wire is thinner in diameter than the heavy mono and FC leader and has no impact on the poppers performance or acceptance by GT's.
I haven't hooked any donkey-class GT's on stick baits so I can only offer what I think would be a smart move.
In areas of large 35+ kg GT's, I'd be inclined to have some heavy FC or Momoi Marlin Hard XL down near the lure.
Swimming the stick baits with wire out the front stuffs their action a fair bit and a lure like a Gamma tends to swing back and foul in the wire too much.
If a GT took it while fouled, there looks to be a chance that the wire could get kinked, which is bad for wire!
I'd be opting for heavy mono or FC to get the best out of the stickbaits in areas prone to the larger models.
If at all possible, keep it all as thin and as light in gauge as possible to benefit your presentation.
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I am not trying to be stupid but trying to understand the setup. So you guys have your main line(braid) to a shock leader(of what length?) to a bite leader(of what length?)? Thanks
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That's right Andrew.
Some photos of various set ups might be helpful.
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Hi Kasey,
For our recent New Cal trip, I used the LPB system with a bimini tied to a short 300lb bite leader for my chuggers. This reduced wind knots and also added a little more distance to our casting.
But for stickbaits, I just used a 170lb mono leader with FG - for better action.
Kerwin and Yow used a short kevlar which worked pretty well.
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Chris, I have been thinking about using a short Kevlar bite leader. Instinctively it feels "wrong" as it is so visible. So very interesting to hear that it worked on this trip. What connection was used between the Shock and the Kevlar?
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Fukui-San uses about 10 inches of Kevlar. Slide the nylon shock into the hollow core of the kevlar, then do a double overhand knot. Kevlar is secured to popper via 5-turn uni.
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Thanks Luke. Does the shock leader goes all the way along the length of the Kevlar (thereby forming part of the Uni)?
No terminals at all. Nice :).
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I've experimented with Kevlar too, but I found it rather difficult tying Uni's with thick >170 lb kevlar.
I used a uni to uni connection of leader to kevlar, and have landed a few fish no problems, but its not a system I would prefer.
(http://s1.postimage.org/134ub2cuc/P1012198.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/134ub2cuc/)
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Hi Kasey
With the system Luke mentioned there is no need for a mono leader to kevlar connection as the mono sits inside the hollow core kevlar. It is just a question of tying the kevlar to the lure. If a uni is hard to form, I guess with kevlar that a clumsy double overhand (perhaps super-glued) to the lure would hold well enough.
I am also thinking that if the mono leader is threaded right to the end of the kevlar section and therefore forms part of the knot to the lure, that would be supremely secure. Effectively you are creating a kevlar sleeve over a short section of the shock leader. I will experiment with this for sure.
The only bitch I can see with this is changing the lure.... :). But that's the case with any set up with no terminals.
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what is the rationale behind the kevlar? It is supposed to be more bite proof? It's just that my kevlar assist seem to get bitten through all the time by toothy creatures. Wouldn't you be better off with Zylon?
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The guys felt that with kevlar, since its more supple, it'll work the stickbaits better. And it seems to offer a little more protection when a mack or barracuda comes along.
Zylon is bloody expensive
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Hi Brandon,
I guess Kevlar offers enough protection against GT teeth. As I'm sure you know, Zylon still stands no chance against your arch-nemesis the 'hoo.
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I saw some Zylon for sale and nearly fainted at the price :o. Is it hollow?
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My experience is kevlar offers no protection whatsoever against mackeral, barracuda or wahoo. My limited experience with Zylon isn't much better. if these critters are around, wire is the only way to go.
Hi Brandon,
I guess Kevlar offers enough protection against GT teeth. As I'm sure you know, Zylon still stands no chance against your arch-nemesis the 'hoo.
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My experience is kevlar offers no protection whatsoever against mackeral, barracuda or wahoo. My limited experience with Zylon isn't much better. if these critters are around, wire is the only way to go.
Hi Brandon,
I guess Kevlar offers enough protection against GT teeth. As I'm sure you know, Zylon still stands no chance against your arch-nemesis the 'hoo.
That's correct. No substitute for nylon or anything really in respect to razor gang.
Really it's to up the BS vs diameter in comparison to nylon and as Chris said - it gives very good, sensitive action.
I've experimented myself, but not for bite leader. I would splice a loop to the end of 2 to 3 metres of Kevlar - connect/splice this to hollow braid or Bimini loop, then run a heavy shock leader up the core for half a metre with a double OH to secure.
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Here is a very quick, rough and ready example of what I meant. This is 260 lb kevlar threaded with 180 lb Sunline shock leader, uni-knotted (badly formed but I rushed - not hard to get right) to a stick. Leader all the way through the kevlar, so in effect we have a kevlar sleeve over the shock leader.
I thought the point here was a bite leader for GTs which inhale, not for Macks, Barracuda etc?
(http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac239/markinbali/Kevlarleadercopy.jpg)
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The guys felt that with kevlar, since its more supple, it'll work the stickbaits better. And it seems to offer a little more protection when a mack or barracuda comes along.
Zylon is bloody expensive
That's usually Brandon's line Chris ;D
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I thought the point here was a bite leader for GTs which inhale, not for Macks, Barracuda etc?
Nope, there is no escape for Brandon in that regard.
You forgot wahoo.
Interesting picture Mark, but I would still uni it to a swivel and not directly to the lure. Tying a uni with thick kevlar really is no fun!
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wouldn't the kevlar be very visible on a stickbait?
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wouldn't the kevlar be very visible on a stickbait?
Agreed, but that's when GTs are timid. There are times when they will eat anything - presented anyway desired.
That's why I had my rig in reverse - as a way to achieve high strength but near seamless transition without a friction knot.
It does make one wonder what gets the focus and how much? Considering that most GTs travel some distance, whether it is below or from behind, to eat/shadow a lure - how visible are our leaders in what is essentially a very spontaneous reaction. Visibilty of leader/Kevlar in light conditions and glare - interesting...
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I thought the point here was a bite leader for GTs which inhale, not for Macks, Barracuda etc?
Nope, there is no escape for Brandon in that regard.
You forgot wahoo.
Interesting picture Mark, but I would still uni it to a swivel and not directly to the lure. Tying a uni with thick kevlar really is no fun!
:) . True, but I am a bit of a masochist when it comes to knots. I recently tied a near perfect 4 turn uni in 300 lb fluoro which the other guys on the boat said was impossible :). The principle would be the same if the threaded kevlar was tied to Swivel with a split ring to the lure.
Brandon, Luke... it was really Luke's comment about Fukui-san's set up that just got me thinking here. Not saying this is smart nor that it will work, just some ideas.
Having thought about kevlar bite leaders before, I was put off by the visibility point that you make. On hearing Chris's comments, then that Kasey has used them successfully and obviously Fukui-san does, I am re-thinking :).
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not that i would know and nor am i talking from experience at all or anything like that.
i think and in my opinion that there is no need at all for bite leaders or twisted leaders, but in saying that i know and understand to a degree that it is debateable as we all obviously have different thought's, opinion's, e.t.c. I will admit and i am not afraid or scared to admit it that i could be and or can be wrong.......... maybe i could be and or am wrong / maybe not.
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I thought the point here was a bite leader for GTs which inhale, not for Macks, Barracuda etc?
Nope, there is no escape for Brandon in that regard.
You forgot wahoo.
Interesting picture Mark, but I would still uni it to a swivel and not directly to the lure. Tying a uni with thick kevlar really is no fun!
:) . True, but I am a bit of a masochist when it comes to knots. I recently tied a near perfect 4 turn uni in 300 lb fluoro which the other guys on the boat said was impossible :). The principle would be the same if the threaded kevlar was tied to Swivel with a split ring to the lure.
Brandon, Luke... it was really Luke's comment about Fukui-san's set up that just got me thinking here. Not saying this is smart nor that it will work, just some ideas.
Having thought about kevlar bite leaders before, I was put off by the visibility point that you make. On hearing Chris's comments, then that Kasey has used them successfully and obviously Fukui-san does, I am re-thinking :).
You tied a uni or a roll/nail?
I think the Kevlar can work fine in most situations, but possily a disadvantage in the visual finesse department - but there really isnt a leader system that isn't devoid of a shortcoming.
BTW, in my quest, I've moved up to boating and rock climbing kevlars i.e. 1000lb+ ...I've still had issues finding the perfect Kevlar for fishing but what i've got at the moment works adequately for the timebeing. This gave me the best of having a near impervious connection between braid and shock leader. I retained the shock leader for it's opaque properties in terms of presentation to the lure itself.