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Topwater Caranx Ignobilis: Giant Trevally (GT) => Tackle & Techniques => Topic started by: Ben Furness on January 30, 2012, 03:06:32 PM
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Hi everyone,
Due to crappy fingers the friction knots seem to have beaten me! Has anyone used the connection below for Gt fishing? It seems to be popular with people towing big lures but I wasn't sure about a casting situation.
TackleTour Video - Braid and fluorocarbon connection without a direct knot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF1u8bnwB4Y#ws)
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Hey Ben,
You wont be able to feed heavy leader (~200lb) up inside JB Hollow.
Better off splicing a loop and doing a catspaw join to a twisted leader.
Cheers
Tom
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Thanks mate but I have heard that JB Hollow 130lb will take 200lb black magic mono? Although I have to admit that I have never seen it done before!
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I have a small spool of 130lb Toray hollow which is what they are using in the TackleTour video.
I just went and tried 210lb Sunline.
No way it was going up the middle haha!
Interesting to hear if someone has done it.
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Agree with everything that has been said.
Ben, if you want to go down this path you'll need to find some 400lb+ hollowcore to splice onto your mainline. Something like JB or TufLine XP would be a good choice.
Splice this for a 2/3 metres, leaving enough room to then splice on your mono shock leader (i'd be thinking around 50cm or so).
It's been a long time since I've done this, and I did it with the cats-paw/twisted connection as mentioned. You would need to experiment with the single though as I haven't done it and that's merely an observation. Many French anglers use this system (i.e. Eric Le Guyader) and they may weigh in on this discussion.
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I've been down the splice mono into 130 lb hollow experimental route before and failed miserabley...I find it very very tough to do.
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Ben, have you tried using any of the friction knot tools on the market?
You are big bloke with huge hands so I can see why the FG or Mid knot seems a bit intimidating. But a PR Knot using a bobbin might prove easier for you.
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You are big bloke with huge hands so I can see why the FG or Mid knot seems a bit intimidating. But a PR Knot using a bobbin might prove easier for you.
Haha, its not that Mark. My banana hands have very weak joints and a few arthritic joints which makes getting a grip on anything smaller than a pair of pliers a major pain in the arse! :)
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Shout's Bobbin Knotter is very proven item. I have been using it for about 4 or 5 years and very happy with it.
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I splice Sunline 210 lb mono in JB 130 hollow no problem
The trick is to round the edge of the mono ( as a needle point ) I don't even have to use a hollow needle this way.
Another important thing when making wind-ons is to put at least 12 kg pressure on the leader/wind-on while serving it to prevent it from slipping ,
since Mono will shrink in diameter when loaded . And going from 0-12/15 kg on strike could possibly lead to mono starting to slip ( if the serve was made with no tension on the leader while serving )
Patrick
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Thanks Patrick,
That's what I was hoping to hear. I might get a small spool and start practicing. How do you round the end of the mono? Sandpaper, lighter?
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Well I've enjoyed reading the posts here and I suppose it is time I tried to contribute a little in return for what has been provided. As to threading heavy (600 lb.) monofilament, flurocarbon, or even 46 strand cable (up to 450 lbs.) up hollow spectra rest assured that it can be done. Maybe not by ease by me but others do it. I guess Basil doesn't frequent this forum as he does 360, but maybe someday he'll drop in. In the mean time there are some hours of informative reading available at his site.
http://www.bhptackle.com/home.php?cat=9 (http://www.bhptackle.com/home.php?cat=9) typical pricing for wind on leaders. showing what diameters and pound test are available. And his home page. http://www.bhptackle.com/home.php (http://www.bhptackle.com/home.php)
Hope you find it to be of some interest.
Bill
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Ben.
I use cheapo nail files to make the shape and then a sharpening stone ( really fine grade ) to smoothen out then point.
Check this video Connecting 130 Blackwater Fluorocarbon Fishing Line to 130 pound Blackwater Super Braid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu4vDqaw6Fo#ws)
I would not serve as he does though ( using 2 clamps ) since it's not enough tension on the Mono.
I personally went the cheapo way there as well using a door handle where I put the loop and some weights I have laying around at home.
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Thanks Patrick,
Is the serve necessary? I have seen the same connection before but using a nail knot (50lb braid) just becore the entry point into the braid tightened with dowels.
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Ben.
I'm by no means an expert on this.. I've just picked up a few things from ppl I trust have the knowledge.
I know ppl use nail knot and some use 2 nail knots.. and some use 1 nail knot close to the end of hollow.. and then a nail knot done on the mono a bit further up( inside the finger trap ) with another nail knot " serve" on the outside just above the " inside" nail knot.
I guess all work ok.
In my opinion the most important thing is to do the serve while the wind-on is under tension ( loaded ). Because if you do the serve as he does in the video ( no tension/ load on the wind on ) when you have 12-15 kg break and fighting a fish.. mono will have a smaller diameter than when unloaded , hence the serve will not put any real pressure on the mono to prevent it from slipping ( the purpose of the serve ).
If you have slow steady load you would not really need a serve for the finger cuff to work , but going from 0-12 kg in a sec you will eventually see the mono slipping out from the insertion if this repeats enough times( without a serve done under load )
Patrick
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I've used 170lb mono spliced into 130lb Hollow JB on several trips. No problem there; however as mentioned here a very tight serve is crucial. I use a Beiter Winder Server (a bow string server) with 20 or 30 lb braid for the serve and a tension/load of 2 x 5 kg on the leader when making the serve.
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This connection is quite commonly used in gamefishing to join monofilament topshots to backing and also to create wind-on leaders. I use a lighter to round off the end of monofilament. Press the end gently with your fingertip after it has been flambeaued to get a nice round point. I've threaded a fair bit of 130 lb mono into 130 lb dacron over the years as well as up to roughly 2.6mm mono leader into 200 lb dacron, and the lighter you go the more fiddly it can get. I use a hollow splicing needle (mine came from Basil but they are available at Wellsys, I think) for certain jobs and it really does help.
I finish the knot with waxed bait rigging floss cinched down in a series of half-hitches, with the connection under a good amount of tension. I like the extra security of multiple half-hitches over a binding/serving, but the latter is clearly more streamlined which would be very desirable when casting. It's possible to split certain brands of bait rigging floss lengthwise: a series of half-hitches made with the thinner strands that you get this way could possibly be sleek enough.
I normally run the mono at least 3 feet up into the dacron, probably closer to 4 feet for 130 lb line. I'm not sure how short you can get away with.
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The easiest way with heavier leaders such as 200 or even 300 lb mono leader is to use 200 lb hollow core. Take a 2 meter long piece of 200 lb hollow core and run 2 feet of mono up into it. Then serve the mono in place. Then splice the 200 lb hollow core into the hollow 130. the splice is seamless and strong as the original hollow core.
They do this on all the CA long range boat. Basil at BHPtackle. com has diagrams on how to do this. He will make leaders to your specifications. As someone mentioned. the serve needs to be very tight but that is really the only weak link in an otherwise simple system.
But it is hard to argue with that FG knot when properly tied.
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I've made lots of windons for game fishing and a few "double enders" for casting, mainly on lighter mono mainline. Windons work the other way round but its exactly the same principle. Double enders have 2 joints, one on the main line & one on the leader. The main & leader actually touch end to end if you do it right.
The serve is the weakest point but it does not have to be that tight. The hollow line "grips" the leader material because the weave "contracts" and the more force you put on it the more it contracts.
To get an idea of how little tension is actually required set up an incomplete leader/hollow braid without the serve and hold the serve area lightly between thumb & forefinger. Get someone to put serious tension on and you will see it will not slip. If it does then the leader is too thin or the braid too thick. The ideal setup as far as thickness goes is to have the leader close to the maximum diameter that will fit up the braid.
However if you push on the serve it may slip, so the weave no longer contracts under load. Pushing on the serve may happen as it hits a rod guide, or a rock ledge or obstruction out on the water.
When the serve is going through the tip guide under high tension (start of the cast) is when the serve is pushed so has exactly the wrong sort of tension on it. If it starts to slip at this point you will see the lure sail majestically into the air trailing the leader with a few feet of mainline hanging limply at the end of your rod, and you with the stunned mullet look on your face :)
It can also be a problem when handling the leader at the boat. You have to be aware of how it functions and handle accordingly. You can't let the leader slip through your hands so the fish drags the serve through your hands. :(
Its a good idea to roughen up the end of the flouro or nylon for the length of the serve, so even if it (the serve) loosens there will still be enough friction for the weave to contract.
What I do with the windons is to cover the area to be served with super glue and serve over the top. This makes a slightly stiff joint but with roller guides it does not matter. You will have to get superglue that will stick to the dyneama (or dacron) & flouro so it may take some shopping around. The same goes with casting as the pull should be nearly straight through the guides during this part of the cast. You can get special sticky stuff but I have never bothered.
If you are a bit paranoid, then put the whole joint under tension & put another serve 12 inches or so from the first. It should not be necessary & the purist will say it actually defeats the purpose of the first serve but it does take the pressure off the serve.