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Topwater Caranx Ignobilis: Giant Trevally (GT) => Tackle & Techniques => Topic started by: braddrew on May 11, 2012, 05:33:17 PM
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Hi Guys,
Great site, thanks for the time you have all taken to help people out :)
I have a question that has been bugging me for a while - how can you assign a PE rating to a rod when there is so much variability between the breaking strain of same thickness PE lines? Take PE3 for example - by the old "rule of thumb" (PE multiplied by 10 gives lb) you're talking about 30lb line, however there are plenty of PE3 lines that are ~50lb (eg Avani Casting SMP). Now the way I'd fish 30lb is very different from the way I'd fish 50lb so if I picked up a PE3 rod, how would I use it? And if I was after a 50lb spin rod, what would I be looking for?
In a similar vein, I just read Brandon's great report on the TBL80/40 (which sounds like an amazing rod) and he makes the comment that it works nice as a heavy PE8 or light PE10 rod. With PE8 up to ~120lb and PE10 up to around ~150lb, would I read this as good for ~130lb (partway between these two maximums) or as good for ~90lb (halfway between 80lb and 100lb)?
Thanks again!
Brad
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It's a very good question Brad and I will be interested to hear other member responses to this.
You are quite correct that PE is a measure of diameter and nothing else.
Personally a line poundage rating and a VERY importantly, a maximum drag rating in pounds, makes most sense to me.
The physical diameter of the line that balances best with a rod is surely a lesser consideration.
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Brad, I hear ya. Since I posted the link below I now assume that PE = lbs, ie PE6-8 = 60-80lbs. I personally think PE ratings, ie line diameter ratings, are a completely useless methodology of describing a rods strength, especially when you are dealing with very thin and very strong PE, but that's just me. Wouldn't it be better if they were weight rated?
The mystery continues....
"The Reef's Edge" - General Popping & Jigging Discussion / PE rating versus breaking strain for setups
Carl
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Carl, it used to be that PE x 10 = approximate lb rating. With the technological advances in the Japanese lines especially, that is no longer a valid guide.
For example I regularly use PE6 that is 80 lb rated, PE 8 that is 100 lb rated and PE10 which is 130 lbs.
A poundage or kilogram rating for rod certainly makes most sense to me. Also many rod makers do not state at all maximum drag ratings. That is really not helpful.
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Yep, it's about time it changed. Can keep it for reels to give a guide on line capacity but it serves no purpose for rods IMO.
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Hi Brad
It is best to keep it as PE x 10 = lb. That is how most of Japanese manufactures still work and you can safely work out max drag around 30-35% of it if there is no drag rating written on rod (depending on rod taper, line system etc...).
Breaking strength has been improved a lot on latest PE lines but it is when straight line and doesn't mean how they break on guides or roller are equally improved compare to previous generation's.
Cheers,
Tak
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Thanks Guys,
That's exactly the sort of information I was after :) I completely agree that drag rating (and the corresponding rod angle for the drag rating) is a great way to rate a rod - much more objective than the "30lb spin" type ratings.
So Tak, taking that idea, you could expect the TBL80/40 to handle around about 30lb of drag as a "normal" fighting pressure? I'm assuming as well that this would be a "90 degree" figure?
Thanks again,
Brad
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It should be a 45 degree figure in my books. That's around the maximum angle you should put on the lifting motion before you go into 'high sticking' country. So that would be the weakest part of the stroke and all other rod angels are within that so would be capable of higher drag :D
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No Brad. 90 degrees is asking for a catastrophe!
I would urge people to be careful with getting too caught up with drag pressure at 45 degrees. During the course of a fight, most anglers get their rods to everything ranging from 0 - 90 degrees. They don't maintain it at 45 degree ever.
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Brandon's 2nd point there is why folks might think that some max drag ratings seem conservative...... but they are not really when allowing for the parts of the fight where the rod goes a bit beyond 45 degrees.
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Drag rating on Carpenter GT rods are based on 45 degree angle and 12-13kg will be fine for TBL80/40 but as Brandon mentioned, rod will never stay in one angle during fight and you will need to adjust it based on line angle or where the fish is. (it doesn't always mean you will need to loosen the drag as you can often control it by rod angle)
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Thanks guys - this makes sense to me now :)
One more question - what circumstances would make you choose to fish this rod as PE10? From a line strength perspective, I'd be happy to fish 120lb anywhere up to 60lb drag (obviously situation dependant - this is the absolute max under ideal conditions) but I reckon I'd struggle to hold 60lb of drag for any length of time (the only 130lb braid I've used is eBay special for bottom bashing and I doubt I pushed that past 30lb drag - plus it was on an overhead reel). Wouldn't PE10 of the same/heavier breaking strain just mean more in water line drag (thicker line), less capacity and no extra "top end" drag?
Thanks again,
Brad
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Hi Brad,
Most people choose PE10 when they need heavier drag - e.g. when they fish for large fish in shallow or rough bottom area where they can't let fish to run much but I'm not sure how many people comfortably fish 60lb drag though ;D
Cheers,
Tak
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Thanks Tak - that's cleared it up for me :)
Brad
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The only people I know fishing 60lb of drag are sitting in a gamechair!
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That's not fishing Brandon, it's winding a winch :P.
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Q? Wouldn't the PE rating of a rod relate to the max line diameter to use for optimal casting performance?
If a rods drag rating was 15kg @ 45 deg. Why wouldn't we use 30/40lb line because surely that would be sufficient for the rods capabilities?
We know that the line strength we use is far above the actual drag capabilities of the reels/rods and the reason for that is shock load strength and to be able to skull drag fish out while palming the spool.
The way I see it is that the PE rating of a rod tells me I can cast line and leader effectively up to that PE rating. Not how strong the rod is at fighting fish.
Clear as mud ;)
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Hi Warwick,
I believe PE rating on GT rods is more to do with strength.
Personally I often encounter the situation when I need to increase drag to heavier then lower the rod angle. Line rating 30/40lb is nothing to do with angle and I'll break my line on the setting you mentioned. :)
Cheers,
Tak
Q? Wouldn't the PE rating of a rod relate to the max line diameter to use for optimal casting performance?
If a rods drag rating was 15kg @ 45 deg. Why wouldn't we use 30/40lb line because surely that would be sufficient for the rods capabilities?
We know that the line strength we use is far above the actual drag capabilities of the reels/rods and the reason for that is shock load strength and to be able to skull drag fish out while palming the spool.
The way I see it is that the PE rating of a rod tells me I can cast line and leader effectively up to that PE rating. Not how strong the rod is at fighting fish.
Clear as mud ;)
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You said it yourself, if you run a higher drag you need to lower your rod angle because your rod won't handle it. A rod with a pe 10 rating (130lb) doesn't mean you can run 130lb of drag across the rod. Maybe if you point the rod straight at the fish but then you are effectively taking the rod out of the equation.
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You said it yourself, if you run a higher drag you need to lower your rod angle because your rod won't handle it. A rod with a pe 10 rating (130lb) doesn't mean you can run 130lb of drag across the rod. Maybe if you point the rod straight at the fish but then you are effectively taking the rod out of the equation.
I think it's assumed that we generally use around 1/4 - 1/3rd of the breaking strain of the line. For 130lb this is around 32lbs drag pressure... which to me seems like a pretty standard amount of drag for a PE10 rod.
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Thanks guys - some good answers here :)
Warrick - you've hit the nail on the head, that's exactly what I was asking (about why you don't use PE10 if you can't handle the drag) :)
Apologies if I'm drifting off topic a little here, but can I ask, has anyone ever caught a fish on PE10 that they think they couldn't have landed on 120lb PE8, and if so, why not?
Brad
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Hi Brad,
On my last trip out on Oahu i tried to see just how far you could push PE8 line. There were two occasions when its limits were met; mostly because i didnt bring my heavy gear!
The first fish that broke the mainline struck the plug about 10m away from the boat and looked to be about 30kilos or so. The fish took out about 8-10m of line and i decided to clamp the spool with my left hand to see if it was possible to stop the fish with PE8. The fish stopped, but the line quickly broke right after the fish stopped. We were fishing in about 75ft of water, so the fish was nowhere near the bottom. The line appeared to have broken a meter or two above my knot (color coded line). I am confident that the line wouldn't have broken with PE10.
The second fish was a pretty similar situation. Deep water and it it was the end of the day. A good fish struck, and i really didnt want to crank in too much line, so i clamped the spool and tried to dead stop it near the boat. Again the line busted well before the fish reached the bottom.
On a previous trip i hooked a good fish in shallower water. We were hammering on it with the boat moving at a pretty quick speed to get the fish out of the reef. Under such high strain of the boat, the line busted with the reel clamped down near lock.
All three times was clamping the spool with a Van Staal275 and PE8 line tied to 200lb leader with an FG knot. The other times i have used heavier line PE10-PE12, i have never had an issue with line snapping.
That being said; i am also fully confident that i would've landed those fish on PE8 with a little more patience. If you go looking to break something, you're probably gonna break it, haha! Sometimes you just gotta test things to their limits to know how to distribute your confidence.
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Sorry although I wrote PE rating is for strength I didn't mean angler can fish at the breaking strain of line class. All I wanted to say was this represents power of the rod rather than casting performance (guides are set to perform best for the line class of course).
Brad - your main line may have certain breaking strain written on spool but you will also need to think about how you connect it to lure. As Jay mentioned, many people generally use up to 30-35% of breaking strain of the line as we tend to loose some on each connection within entire line system, main to leader connection, connection to rings to lures as such, as well as for shock load purpose. So although it is not 100% to breaking strain of the main line, you can still apply heavier drag to line system using PE10 compare to PE8. Drag rating and line rating on most rods are come from this and hope this make sense to you. :)
Nathan - thank you for summarising. I think it is sort of situation we encounter.
Cheers,
Tak
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Thanks guys, clears it up completely... great examples Nathan, pity you lost the fish though :D
Brad