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Brandon Khoo

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
February 07, 2013, 06:27:27 PM
Not quite with you, Sami. What do you mean?
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Sami Ghandour

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
February 07, 2013, 06:32:12 PM
I am wondering if you had problem picking up the slack and have it finished the same way as the picture?

Brandon Khoo

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
February 07, 2013, 07:07:57 PM
now I understand what you are saying. The photo you have attached is the way the Nomad guides used to attach twisted leaders before they went to single strand leaders with a FG knot.

You are correct - with the attachment done the way in the Youtube segment which Mark attached in his earlier post, I can't pick up the slack and get it to bite. I much prefer the approach which is  set out in a diagram much earlier in this thread. Using this approach, the connection looks like the photo below. This was my approach before switching back to friction knots again.

I simply cannot get the approach from that Youtube segment to bite throughout the length of the connection. In the segment, the guys says that the pressure is spread over the length of the connection but it is not. It is concentrated around the highest point only.

If it swims; I want to catch it!

Sami Ghandour

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
February 08, 2013, 12:02:48 AM
now I understand what you are saying. The photo you have attached is the way the Nomad guides used to attach twisted leaders before they went to single strand leaders with a FG knot.

You are correct - with the attachment done the way in the Youtube segment which Mark attached in his earlier post, I can't pick up the slack and get it to bite. I much prefer the approach which is  set out in a diagram much earlier in this thread. Using this approach, the connection looks like the photo below. This was my approach before switching back to friction knots again.

I simply cannot get the approach from that Youtube segment to bite throughout the length of the connection. In the segment, the guys says that the pressure is spread over the length of the connection but it is not. It is concentrated around the highest point only.



Hi Brandon,
I agree with you that the connection is not spread out, the pressure is on the twisty and is right on the loop to loop,
the twisted leader had served me well personally and raised my landing ratio to almost 90% then any other knot,
the usage of Hollow line in general had increase my landing by far,
I've seen so many failures to FG knot and the guys spend substantial time retying on board over and over and over.
the good things about the twisty that i normally fish from 5 to 6 days and i don't have to touch the leader or adjust anything,
i encourage all the guys that fishes with me to give it a shot and find out if it will serve them the way it served me, but again it is not for everybody.
if it served me well and increase my landing it doesn't mean it will serve other the same way.
the weakest point in the twisty is the mono loop, as such i beefed it to 220lb Fisherman leader for this application and it never cut trough so far, even with a locked drag,
if you choose to go hollow with twisty, you have to go with a 130lb line and a minimum of 200lb shock leader while targeting GT's,
the slack is easy to pick with a pointy pen and by using your nail.
i hope i didn't make it complicated to other member :)

Ricky Lim

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
February 08, 2013, 12:54:42 AM
Hi sami

With 220lb twisted, how long is your twisted leader? Do you have the connection in the guides?

Ricky

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
February 08, 2013, 06:51:24 AM
Hi sami
With 220lb twisted, how long is your twisted leader? Do you have the connection in the guides?
Ricky

Hi Ricky,
It really depend on the length of your rods, i normally run  40 to 45 inch twisty for my 7'2" rod and around 50 inch twisty for the 8'2"
the loop to loop is inside the guide and it won't affect your castability at all.

    Tight lines
     Sami

Brandon Khoo

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
February 08, 2013, 07:50:41 AM
Hi Sami - I still regard the twisted leader as the strongest connection. I still carry a few on every trip but I stopped using it primarily because I got sick of destroying guides. I use a very long leader (around 3 metres) and found the single strand to work better for me. If you use a shorter leader like the length you use where the connection is in the guides, I think your guides are very safe from the twisted leader.

I'm surprised at the number of failures you have seen with the FG. In all the years I have used it, I had a single failure with it and that was when I first started experimenting with it many years ago. I then went to twisted leaders for a few years but since going back to the FG about five years ago, I have not had a failure with it. It is a knot that needs to be tied properly because if it isn't it will slip.

I do find it interesting you use a soft leader like the Fisherman for your twisted leaders. My favourite line for making twisted leaders was Penn 10X - a ridiculously hard line. I found it to be very abrasion resistant and if one line in the leaer got cut, it would simply twist completely around the other without coming apart.
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Andy Rowe

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
February 08, 2013, 10:09:57 AM
Interesting discussion. Sami that photo in your earlier post shows a twisty with a single strand of mainline coming out of the loop, can you describe this connection, looks like a cats paw but I don't see any loop as in the other pictures using the bimini.

I used to use the twisty and i refined how to make a very short bimini loop of about 10cm or less which cancelled further guide destruction, I never had a failure on this knot though my leader was quite cumbersome with 170lb twisty crimped onto a 200lb+ short bite leader. The ultimate test of my FG knot was South Oman last year where I did not catch a GT under 40kg and did not have any failures and we put some ridiculous pressure on when dragging the fish out with the boat. I think there can be simple errors made with this knot though.

All that said I still found the twisty with short bimini the safest knot to cast, I still get hang ups with FG especially in lighter braids.
Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 10:15:30 AM by Andy Rowe
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Mark Harris

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
February 08, 2013, 11:06:21 AM
Some interesting insights here.

I too was a bit surprised by the FG Knot failure comments. Since learning to tie it properly I have not had a single failure in what is a very large number of fishing days. Indeed the other day when I had that horrible lock up due to to buried line which was discussed in another thread, the PE8 line broke far away from the knot.  Quite incredible that the knot was not the weak link in the set up.

For those of you who fish twisted leaders, do you not find it to be a slightly clumsy set up which gives you a less clean connection to your lure, especially when fishing subtle stickbaits?

As Sami has already said though, so much of this will just come down to personal preferences.
Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 11:19:57 AM by Mark Harris

Luke Wyrsta

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
February 08, 2013, 11:30:26 AM
I really haven't found any need to make a "long" twisted leader unless fishing long spanses of coral or rocky flats and outcrops with no deep water vantage. Deeper water vantages near eliminate the requirement for a longer leader due to the inherent angle - of course, this is dictated by how far you out you hook your fish!

Mark, there's no right answer here. I swing between FG, Tokara and Twisted leader depending on the conditions and temperament of the fish. I, along with Sami and others do tend to incorporate a heavier single strand bite leader, whch aids in stickbait presentation. If the fish are spooky and conditions are slight, I will pull out the spool with FG knot ready. If the fish are aggressive and don't care, it's twisted leader and all the benefits of being able to put max hurt on without worrying about strike blow-put or pinging light lines.

All my leaders average 1.5 to 2 metres max and this is primarily due to ease of casting, near 100% elimination of wind knots and its just long enough to avoid tail-acutes on a majority of GTs.

To add to this, I've seen countless poorly tied and configured FGs and PR's. if they aren't tied properly they either fail, blow-out from the smallest amount of force or simply catch the guides. My theory is that the huge variance in diameter from leader to friction knot adds to the knots ability to form a large loop and catch on guides.
Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 11:32:43 AM by Luke Wyrsta

Ben Yeo

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
February 08, 2013, 11:31:25 AM
Some interesting insights here.

I too was a bit surprised by the FG Knot failure comments. Since learning to tie it properly I have not had a single failure in what is a very large number of fishing days. Indeed the other day when I had that horrible lock up due to to buried line which was discussed in another thread, the PE8 line broke far away from the knot.  Quite incredible that the knot was not the weak link in the set up.

For those of you who fish twisted leaders, do you not find it to be a slightly clumsy set up which gives you a less clean connection to your lure, especially when fishing subtle stickbaits?

Hi Mark,

Agreed.
I find using twisties on Stickbaits to be less "connected". I have less feel for the lure and working them, especially with Gammas, it feels "dead".
Have moved away from friction knots, only because I am a little OCD, not that that I had any failed on me, but unless the PR knot turns out visually perfect I cant help but be compelled to retie.

I have since moved on to home made "pull-on" leaders and have had no problems whatsoever, its the most seamless mono to braid connection IMHO.

Cheers 
Ben

Andy Rowe

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
February 08, 2013, 11:52:11 AM
My theory is that the huge variance in diameter from leader to friction knot adds to the knots ability to form a large loop and catch on guides.
Luke agree completely, I find PE10 works best with the FG, PE8 to a 170 or 200lb leader increases wind knots on my 2 to 2.5m leaders as i like to have my finger on mono when i cast. The contrast between the fine and supple PE8 to the bigger leader is the issue, I use varivas main line which may be part to do with the trouble. The problem i have with FG is the small amount of warping in the mono at the end of the connection which occurs on locking of the main body of the knot, i only do 8 or 9 wraps prior to half hitches and find the more wraps the bigger the warpping of the mono in the knot. This causes friction through the guides and the inevitable loops which Luke describes. Have not figured out how to get it perfectly straight yet, but will keep working on it. Shorter leaders would definitely help but again finger on the braid to cast which i find comprimises the varivas after a while.

Luke assume your finger is not on the mono when casting? what mainline are you using of late?
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Peter Morris

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
February 08, 2013, 02:47:49 PM
I stopped using twisties after one completely ripped off my stripper guide at Bugatti.
Mine were always around 8ft in length and up untill that point they served me really well.

I have been using the FG ever since without any knot failures whatsoever......But reading through this here I see some lean back towards twisties...????
Has anyone had guide problems with shorter twisties say 2 metres in length like Luke suggested..??

Pete

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
February 08, 2013, 03:52:13 PM
I stopped using twisties after one completely ripped off my stripper guide at Bugatti.
Mine were always around 8ft in length and up untill that point they served me really well.

I have been using the FG ever since without any knot failures whatsoever......But reading through this here I see some lean back towards twisties...????
Has anyone had guide problems with shorter twisties say 2 metres in length like Luke suggested..??

Pete

IMO - 2m isn't what i'd call all that short.  2m of leader is going to stretch from the lure past the scutes of the fish (in most cases :) ) so you're covered there, and if you're more than 2m buried into coral/rock bottom then it's trouble town anyway.  Just thinking about it 2m would pull me up on most of my twisties.  And nope, no trouble with twisties at all.  Only trouble i've had is with FG knots - tying them and tip wrap.  For single i use a bimini catspawed to single.

Luke Wyrsta

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
February 08, 2013, 04:00:47 PM
I stopped using twisties after one completely ripped off my stripper guide at Bugatti.
Mine were always around 8ft in length and up untill that point they served me really well.

I have been using the FG ever since without any knot failures whatsoever......But reading through this here I see some lean back towards twisties...????
Has anyone had guide problems with shorter twisties say 2 metres in length like Luke suggested..??

Pete

Hey Peter!

There's definitely been a migration towards friction knots for ease of casting and connecting supple leader. I think it's best to choose a leader to suit the situation which why I happily use both.

With shorter twisted leaders, I've never had one single wind knot in conjunction with a very short bimini double.

With similar length FG knots, I've had less than 5% issue with wind knots.

Luke