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Luke Wyrsta

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Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
March 11, 2007, 10:18:37 PM
I am in the process of drafting instructions for making twisted leaders. This will be a resource for GT anglers and will be going on the GTPopping.com main site.

These are drafts. I would value any feedback from experienced and beginning anglers on how clear and simple these instructions are.






Greg Burt

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
March 12, 2007, 08:37:49 AM
Hi Luke, I have a couple of twisted leaders put away for impoundment Barra but might as well use them for Popping. I was suss on them because the twists apear to reflect light which wouldn't be a problem popping the surface. They must work because of thier popularity at a serious price, you thoughts please.
I like your Midknot, I tried it joining braid main to mono backing 8kg mono/15lb Nitlon [fiddley] and 15kg mono/30lb Nitlon as it lays flat. I used it to join the 30lb to 60lb Jinkai leader and put over the scales to 5kg drag, no problem and looks a good low profile knot but i'll keep a eye on it, I read somewhere you prefer other knots.
Do you also coat this knot in braid friendly glue and burn the leader end ?. :-\
What glue do you prefer ?, I used to use Plio-Bond but cannot find it anywhere [with all the chat I hope you find time to fish] ::).
Greg 'FFF' Burt

Neil

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
March 12, 2007, 10:37:15 AM
Hi Greg

As you say, one of the down sides of a full twisty is it's faceted appearance, this can put fish off in certain conditions. My own GT leaders finish in a single strand of 250 to 400lb mono.
Midknot is ok and doesn't need glue or melted leader end to work. Everyone needs to be aware that Japanese anglers use this knot in heavy braid, think 150 to 200lb, where the margin for error is acceptable. Tests have shown midknots to break fairly low compared to a well tied bimini to leader connection. This topic is quite complex, on other forums it has gone on for months!!
Luke is proposing a knot tying area, hope it doesn't engulf the site. :D

Neil
Last Edit: March 12, 2007, 12:29:35 PM by Luke Wyrsta

Luke Wyrsta

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
March 12, 2007, 01:35:16 PM
Hi Luke, I have a couple of twisted leaders put away for impoundment Barra but might as well use them for Popping. I was suss on them because the twists apear to reflect light which wouldn't be a problem popping the surface. They must work because of thier popularity at a serious price, you thoughts please.
I like your Midknot, I tried it joining braid main to mono backing 8kg mono/15lb Nitlon [fiddley] and 15kg mono/30lb Nitlon as it lays flat. I used it to join the 30lb to 60lb Jinkai leader and put over the scales to 5kg drag, no problem and looks a good low profile knot but i'll keep a eye on it, I read somewhere you prefer other knots.
Do you also coat this knot in braid friendly glue and burn the leader end ?. :-\
What glue do you prefer ?, I used to use Plio-Bond but cannot find it anywhere [with all the chat I hope you find time to fish] ::).

I only ever use them for popping, and as you mentioned, it simply ins't a problem as the leader is rarely in the water. I also doubt that the leader would spook more fish when compared to the fishing attracting attention of the lures action. Try making your own, there aren't expensive that way and they are fun to tie.

I do like the Midknot, but as Neil stated, it is not my number 1 for those reasons. I also find that it doesn't bite very well with 130lb+ Tuf Line due to the diameter, could be just me but i reckon i can tie a midknot as quick and correct as some of the top guys. With other thinnner diameter braids, this is not an issue.

Other connections that i like, include obviously the 70 turn bimini twist, or, to form the loop, splicing the braid (hollowcore generally >100lb) and then connecting via loop to loop with twisty or using a Bristol/No-name knot. There is another knot that i like that has been created by a friend, i am in the process of learning to tie and then testing.

I do plan to post this kind of information on the main website and as a sticky here in the forum once we have some good and hard info.
Last Edit: March 12, 2007, 01:37:26 PM by Luke Wyrsta

Brandon Khoo

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
March 12, 2007, 08:39:43 PM
I'm a fan of the twisted leaders too. Neil's approach by using a length of single strand is one that seems to have caught on quite a bit and I think it is an excellent idea. I tend to use this with stickbaits but for poppers, prefer the approach Luke has above where I weave the twisted leader back through to have a four strand bite segment. I'm not sure it really does a great deal but it has become a bit of a habit. Unlike Luke, I only use one segment of braid for securing the bite segment but it is about two cms long and I superglue it. it's great - never had a failure.

If it swims; I want to catch it!

Andrew Poulos

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
March 12, 2007, 09:38:31 PM
I like the twisted leaders but also tie them off to a swivel then a single strand leader. I use 50 and 60lb twisted leaders alot, then finish up with a single strand of 80lb leader. This is mainly when spinning garfish so I dont have the twisty all the way to the gar as I let it drift around at times. When using lures I get rid of that and connect to the popper or whatever im using.
Im practicing the midknot now with 50lb tuf line and 100lb leader and on the scales it broke at almost 15kg....is that what you would expect or better ? I dont think I tied it that well so will keep trying.
Last Edit: March 12, 2007, 09:44:40 PM by Luke Wyrsta

Brandon Khoo

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
March 12, 2007, 10:05:52 PM
I like the twisted leaders but also tie them off to a swivel then a single strand leader. I use 50 and 60lb twisted leaders alot, then finish up with a single strand of 80lb leader. This is mainly when spinning garfish so I dont have the twisty all the way to the gar as I let it drift around at times. When using lures I get rid of that and connect to the popper or whatever im using.
Im practicing the midknot now with 50lb tuf line and 100lb leader and on the scales it broke at almost 15kg....is that what you would expect or better ? I dont think I tied it that well so will keep trying.

Can you imagine what it would break at if you simulated the strike of a fish? As Neil wrote above, the guys using this use HEAVY braid. I prefer the FG to the midknot myself
If it swims; I want to catch it!

Luke Wyrsta

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
March 12, 2007, 10:11:15 PM
I'm a fan of the twisted leaders too. Neil's approach by using a length of single strand is one that seems to have caught on quite a bit and I think it is an excellent idea. I tend to use this with stickbaits but for poppers, prefer the approach Luke has above where I weave the twisted leader back through to have a four strand bite segment. I'm not sure it really does a great deal but it has become a bit of a habit. Unlike Luke, I only use one segment of braid for securing the bite segment but it is about two cms long and I superglue it. it's great - never had a failure.

Rather than acting like more of a bite leader, i just find it as a good way to finish off the leader. If you do it right, the leader won't budge with the bite leader twisted back up, the nail knots are simply a failsafe.

What is this knot you speak of Brandon? I seem to recall you know if from your rod building days?

Cheers,
Luke

Luke Wyrsta

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
March 12, 2007, 10:13:55 PM
I like the twisted leaders but also tie them off to a swivel then a single strand leader. I use 50 and 60lb twisted leaders alot, then finish up with a single strand of 80lb leader. This is mainly when spinning garfish so I dont have the twisty all the way to the gar as I let it drift around at times. When using lures I get rid of that and connect to the popper or whatever im using.
Im practicing the midknot now with 50lb tuf line and 100lb leader and on the scales it broke at almost 15kg....is that what you would expect or better ? I dont think I tied it that well so will keep trying.

Although the midknot is notorious for breaking at low pressures, i find that exceptionally low.

Neil may be able to comment in more detail.

Brandon Khoo

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
March 13, 2007, 08:04:20 AM
It's a variant on what rod builder do when they attach the feet of guides. If I could only get the damn photo to work, I'd do one and post it.



I'm a fan of the twisted leaders too. Neil's approach by using a length of single strand is one that seems to have caught on quite a bit and I think it is an excellent idea. I tend to use this with stickbaits but for poppers, prefer the approach Luke has above where I weave the twisted leader back through to have a four strand bite segment. I'm not sure it really does a great deal but it has become a bit of a habit. Unlike Luke, I only use one segment of braid for securing the bite segment but it is about two cms long and I superglue it. it's great - never had a failure.

Rather than acting like more of a bite leader, i just find it as a good way to finish off the leader. If you do it right, the leader won't budge with the bite leader twisted back up, the nail knots are simply a failsafe.

What is this knot you speak of Brandon? I seem to recall you know if from your rod building days?

Cheers,
Luke
If it swims; I want to catch it!

Greg Burt

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
March 13, 2007, 11:12:45 AM
Last Edit: April 01, 2007, 10:38:31 AM by Greg Burt
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Neil

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
March 14, 2007, 02:47:01 PM
Check this stuff out and post your comments.
Some of you may have read it, I did it a couple of years ago but it's still applies today.

Neil



Text Version of Neil's Information (you can also download the document at the end of the post)

I hope some of this post answers a few questions out there.

These results were achieved using an digital force gauge measuring in 10gram increments, however all figures have been rounded to the nearest half kilo to simplify things.
The line used was new unused 80lb XP Tuff Line, because it's well known and I use and recomend it.
Reel and Rod used in tests were Stella 10000 and Tokara 60.

Line tested no knots - 44 kg. This is a very good figure as it's well over the stated b/s. To get pounds b/s multiply by 2.2 is close enough.

Test 1. (gradual force is used to get highest b/s. 3 tests each knot)
Bimini Twist 70 turns - 41 to 43.5 kg
Bimini twist 30 turns - 21.5 to 30 kg
Midknot - 23 to 28 kg
Test 2. (moderate shock is applied - something like small fish) No elasticity or bungy is involved here that comes later.
Bimini Twist 70 turns - 31 to 35 kg
Bimini Twist 30 turns - 15 to 18.5 kg
Midknot - 21 to 25 kg

Test 3. (heavy shock applied - like big fish) Still no bungy.
Bimini Twist 70 turns - 14 to 16 kg
Bimini Twist 30 turns - don't bother
Midknot - 9.5 to 11 kg

Test 4. ( sharpest shock possible applied) No bungy. This ones scary only did it once.
Bimini 70 -- 8.5 kg
Midknot -- 8.5 kg

Test 5. Super twisty leader is added to 70 turn bimini and test 2 3 4 repeated.
Super twisty is 3.7m long provides 60cm of bungy at 30kg of force.
2. - 40kg
3. - 25 kg
4. - 16 kg

Midknot not tested, however the small amount of stretch in single strand mono leader will provide a small benefit as the stretch is way less than 60cm.

Sturgeon leader is slightly stretchier than twisty - 80cm per 3.7m at 30kg
This will provide good results, however, I don't trust braid to braid connections and that seems to be the only way to re-rig in a hurry.( That is, like a standard wind-on with a much longer braid loop section)

This could develop into a full blown Thesis, I have another set of figures doing the tests through rods and reels.

Reel only with 15kg drag setting, no bungy
Heavy shock applied - 23 to 27 kg
Heavy shock with bungy - 21 to 24 kg

Reel on rod with 15kg drag setting and bungy leader ( rod held at 60 degrees)
Heavy shock applied - 19 to 21.5 kg


A brief summary goes like this,
Bimini is king.
Bungy is good.
Don't use Midknot on 80 braid with 15 kg drag setting and mega gt it may just go bang.
Theoretically a good bimini in 80 braid with twisty leader and 15 drag setting is unbreakable.
Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 04:48:03 PM by Luke Wyrsta

Greg Burt

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
March 14, 2007, 03:28:29 PM
Squidgie or Luke: With the low breaking of the Midknot, do you mean as in snap or the knot unraveling?
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Luke Wyrsta

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
March 14, 2007, 04:49:39 PM
Squidgie or Luke: With the low breaking of the Midknot, do you mean as in snap or the knot unraveling?

Snapping! :o :'(

Andrew Poulos

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Re: Twisted Leaders: Instructions + Diagrams
March 14, 2007, 10:07:41 PM
Yep, ka' ping...though I retried again another one last night and that pulled 40lbs in gradual force before the main line snapped actually, not the knot. Not sure what happened there...it was 50lb tuf line....