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Neil Griffiths

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Most jap popping rods share a few major similarities that make them different to the yank stuff out there. Most yank rods are fast taper, has anyone seen any rods marked as "slow taper" recently?  I can't think of many at all and I'm looking at a few hundred at the moment!!
I reckon it must be like buying a new car, you wander into the car yard and the assistant shows you a couple of good looking things and proceeds to tell you that one is fast and one is slow, no prizes for guessing which one gets overlooked. But does this mean that fast taper rods are inherently better than slow ones. Well, not if you like jap popping rods, as all the notable ones seem to have slower actions. The reason for this is that a slow, progressive taper is more likely to produce glitch free casts, as well as the bonus of less load on the angler when hooked up due to the fulcrum point being closer to the reel.
 In fact I reckon that the whole fast taper casting rod thing is being totally oversold to us with no thought from some manufacturers about what's better for anglers, just the idea that a rod marked as fast will outsell others, regardless of it being a trout rod or a GT rod in spin, fly or cast.
Another related issue is the reverse stripper guide syndrone. All jap rods seem to do it and the disease has caught up to Aussie builders now as well, you are hard pressed to see any top flight rods without this type of configeration these days.
I am totally unconvinced (I will point out here that I own 6 or 7 rods built this way) about this exercise. It presumes that someone binding on guides knows more about the subject than the manufacturer who has spent heaps on getting the design right in the first place.
It also exposes us to another problem and this is guide failure when line wraps the stripper under load. A guide is much weaker when the two arms are under compression compared to when they are in extention so when the guide is reversed the chance of the guide collapsing under line wrap load is substantially increased.
I just can't see any real life benefit other than the fact that now we are so used to seeing them this way the guide would look unusual if the rod binder put it on the right way around.

Neil



Brandon Khoo

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Neil - agree entirely with the comment on fast taper rods but that really seems to be a perception these days. About the only one of the top line Japanese rods that I can think of with a faster taper is the Carpenter SP78UHL and I wouldn't regard it as very fast taper. It's is simply faster than the other rods in the range.

Another form of fishing where I think the fast taper/braid combination is questionable is for barramundi. The combination of a jumping fish that shakes it head like crazy with a stiff fast taper rod using braid can't be ideal. That said, the large majority of premium barra rods on the market are fast taper.

On the contrary attachment which is now regarded as the only way to go with stripper guides, I think the rationale (right or wrong, I don't know) is that the line is less prone to being caught on the guide. I can't really understand this argument because if anything, the design of the MNSG guide is such that I would have thought the two legs would have helped funnel the line back into the guide. Where this has gotten absurd is that they are now using contrary attachments on jigging rods! If you check it out, just about every Japanese jigging rod is using a contrary attachment and you don't cast with these!!  ???  I just had a look at a custom jigging rod which I have from Ian Miller and that has a contrary attachment as well. I suppose he is just following what the market wants.
Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 08:12:16 AM by Brandon
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Earl Hamilton

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Hi Guys.
I dont know about the taper thing, but one thing comes to mind is that for the heavy rods ie popping and jigging we big westerners are able to cope better with the longer fulcrum simply because of our size and weight, and i think we tend to be a bit more macho. The Asians will find the Calstars harder work than the Jap style, but they are not afraid to us a noodle but the same noodle might make us a bit queezy about it.
The "reverse guide" thing-well me too I dont see the sense in it. As far as I am aware, the double leg of the guide is designed to cradle the knot into the ring and reduce knots. Indeed, I recently saw on one of the forumsa heavy nylon loop whipped to the rod at the front of the guide to do just that.Also it looks to me that the ring would be easier to push out from the single leg side. This is not confined to jigging and popping rods and is not a new thing. Back in the eighties the Japs were doing it on there fly rods, and I dare say other rods too. This is despite the fact that Fuji put in a good deal of effort to design a fly stripper guide specificly for overcoming the knot problem. It was the NSG-F which had a huge radiused heavily flanged silicon carbide ring and was extremely effective at overcoming the knot problem because the knot had no purchase on such a big cross section radius-but the the builders put them on in reverse ? I have these on my #11, but in the normal orientation. Looking at an ICMNSG there does appear to be more for a wayward knot to catch on in the two legged position as apposed to the reverse. If Ian Miller is doing this on his rods then perhaps someone should ask him why-he will surely have a good reason for doing so.

Hal Harvey

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Re: GT rods - Reversing the stripper guide
June 06, 2007, 10:22:30 AM
Quote
It presumes that someone binding on guides knows more about the subject than the manufacturer who has spent heaps on getting the design right in the first place.
Actually, that's not the case; Fuji were recommending the stripper guide be reversed on casting rods since they first brought out the new frame style. I wrote the following six years ago for Western Angler magazine, if you want to wade through it:

"   It's long been known that in these guides with two legs on one side and one leg on the other, there are less casting tangles to be had around the first guide if it is put on the rod back to front; ie with the double legs facing the tip. A few people used to do it, but it did look weird and didn't make much difference, so you never saw it much. However with these latest guides - MN and Low Rider - it makes more difference than before, and even Fuji are saying that's how you should use them.

   It never seemed logical that the line could tangle around that first guide. After all, the line is coming from below it and being pulled through by a weight on the far side of it. It's getting pulled through very fast and has to be dragged off the reel, so how does it have time to knot around the guide?

   I got hold of a video a while back that had some quite interesting footage. It probably had some pretty interesting audio too, but it was in Japanese, which does us no good. It was done by Fuji, and they set up a couple of different rods and line types against a black background, to be filmed with a high-speed camera. A caster, using a separate rod, launched a weight that was also attached to the filmed rod's line, and the way the line flowed off the reel and through the guides was studied in slow motion.

   One thing it showed was that because of the longer double legs on the Low Rider frame (LCSG), having the double legs toward the reel interfered with the flow of the line through the first guide ring; having the double legs towards the tip allowed the line cleaner entry into the ring.

   It also showed braid line flowing off a spinning reel much smoother than nylon, except when loose loops of line got picked up and flew off into a guide wrap and a break-off. They showed that with the old high frames, but not with Low Riders. Make that mean what you will.

   But the really interesting bit was how the line flowed through, around, over and all about that first guide at the start of the cast. In some of the sequences there would have been half a metre of line on the far side of the stripping guide that had not yet passed through the guide! Even coming off a spinning reel, there was enough momentum in the line to throw bundles of line past the first guide, faster than it could be pulled through. Then, like cracking a whip, it threw an S-shape and overshot the guide on its way back down again, heading back towards the reel faster than it was going up through the guides. With more line still pouring up, a conflagration of line would seem to be an apt description. Throwing a tangle around that guide was entirely understandable, and if a shock leader was involved, the hinging and catch points provided by knots and different thicknesses of line would make it inevitable.

   However the footage of the Low Rider showed a smoother passage of line, and the line that overshot the frame did not appear able to hang up on the frame on the way back because of the long sloping legs pointing to the tip. Once through that first guide, it was smooth sailing. The line was almost running straight.

    Now remember, the video is Fuji propaganda and we haven't tried these guides yet, but we can see what they're trying to achieve; and presumably they wouldn't be making a lot of noise about how they've done it if they weren't at least closer than before."

I'll agree it's pointless on jig rods.

Earl Hamilton

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Hal thanks for that. There does seem to be some sense there and it was enough to convince me to put the stripper on in reverse on my Seed-I'm sure it can do no harm at least.
I have seen this phenomenon of the line momentum creating a loop in front of the stripper guide with fly casting. Sometimes with shooting heads the backing would catch round the guide on the shoot. Several years ago I discussed this with Omri Thomas of Normark, he said to me then to try putting the stripper on in reverse-Surprise, I didn't, - but I see it in a different light now, and I have a #12 waiting for the stripper to be replaced, so that too will be "in reverse". Perhaps I should try a low rider for the stripper on the fly rod, it should certainly stand up to the riguers of travelling and boat dings better than the last one !

Stephen Polzin

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Some interesting information there for sure.  I'm in the process of making up a rod at the moment (thanks for the assistance Hal), but just couldn't bring myself to put the stripper on "backwards".  I don't doubt the benefits, but I just don't like the look of them and I've never encountered a problem with conventional fitment. 

steve
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Earl Hamilton

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I was with you on this Steven, pretty much for the same reasons-however I have made the jump since my last post. My #12 wt fly rod now has a "reversed" Stripper, and the Seed popping rod will follow as soon as the grips arrive from the US. I figured that the "reverse" position can't do any harm, and there may well be some advantage, so I'll give it a whirl !

Luke Wyrsta

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Re: GT Rod Guide
June 12, 2007, 11:18:01 PM
Here is some information that i am putting together for the website...

Feel free to comment on it - although i know GT rods well - getting all the terminology and actual fact is a little daunting when it comes to fishing rods!



Characteristics of GT rodsConfigurationComponents & ConstructionWhat GT rod is right for me?
Like anything in fishing, there are always many factors that influence your decisions about what rod you should get.

Here are some factors you should be aware of when purchasing a GT rod (particularly if you are a beginner):
How much do you want to spend?
How often will you be popping?
Are you willing to wait for the rod to be made?
Are you aware of the other hardware and equipment required to complete your GT outfit?
What areas/environments do you plan to go popping?
What size of fish are present?
What physical state are you in (are you fit, stamina, endurance, strength?).
Last Edit: June 12, 2007, 11:20:48 PM by Luke Wyrsta

Luke Wyrsta

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Luke Wyrsta

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Tell me what you got, punk!
June 13, 2007, 10:15:42 PM
For the next part of the article i am going to provide a guide for proven rods, both Japanese and abroad that are ideal for 1: Heavy Popping & 2: Medium Popping.

I will be including a breakdown of some specs, costing, PE rating and ideal lure(s)/action/conditions....

This may take me a while - however, if any members out there feel they are experts on a particular rod model - i would love to hear your thoughts.

For example, in the heavy section we will have the likes of the Carpenter WV, Fisherman Monster, Smith KD, Calstar GF700XH etc....

Looking forward to any responses, or just wait a little while for my guide to be compiled ;)

Brandon Khoo

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Luke - you probably scared everyone off using the "expert" word! Noone is game to post a comment on a rod now  ;D
Well, I'm no expert but happy to post some details on my two favourite heavy popping rods.

My "go to" rod is my Smith Komodo Dragon. I like this rod best for its all round combination of length, weight and power. I find I can fish with this rod the whole day quite comfortably. The rod is 7'6", weighs about 430 grams, supposedly casts lures to 300 grams and can fish up to PE12. I find that it is fine for lures up to around 200 grams and then it is asking a lot of the rod (and the angler) to cast more than that. In terms of line, I find 80 - 100lb is ideal for the rod and I generally fish around 12 - 16kg drag on it. PE 12 is about 150lb line which i personally do not think the rod is suitable for. i actually don't know any GT anglers using 150lb line! The rod has a slowish action although I feel that it has a slightly faster action that the Tokara. I have been previously been told that I am wrong and that the Tokara actually has a faster action but I can only tell you what i feel myself.

My heavy GT rod is a WV83XH. this is (I think) the heaviest rod in the Carpenter range of popping rods in terms of power and also in terms of actual weight (Jon - feel free to correct me). I personally think the primary difference between this and my WV80XH is that the 83 is three inches longer and all of this is in the butt and that is about it. I think the rod is around the 600 gram mark in weight, is 8'3" long and I use this for my heaviest lures (over 200g). I fish up to 130lb line on this. The rod has a pretty slow action to it but is immensely powerful. I do not think I am strong enough to load this rod fully but it is nice to have a rod where you feel you can go all out with it.

I can cast this rod considerably longer than i can cast the Komodo Dragon for obvious reasons. The rod is 9 inches longer and the longer butt section really gives you some leverage when casting. This is a great weapon when distance is a priority and I also find the length an advantage when you are trying to get the rod high to keep the line clear of trouble. That said, I cannot use this rod all day and would probably pass out after half a day!
If it swims; I want to catch it!

Paul Taylor

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Brandon or Jon,

Your opinion would be greatly appreciated.

I have a Carpenter SP 78H SHP which I am yet to use.

If I was considering a second popping rod to provide some variety and was considering the Wild Violence.

I am 6'5" and want to be able to use a variety of lures with the two rods.

I like the Carpenters what would you suggest.

Regards Paul

Jon Li

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Hi Paul ,

Both SP78UHL n WV80XH are the most powerfull rods from Carpenter range and only the strongest anglers can fully utilise the potential of these 2 rods , SP is a shorter / stiffer rod meant to produce the biggest splash out of the biggest popper in the market while WV is longer / more forgiving rod meant for all purpose situation be it working the large poppers , big pencil poppers or big stickbaits weighing in excess of 125 gr. ( w.o. armaments ) and therefore my suggestion is you should consider WV80XH for your 2nd rod .

However , if you often go for multidays GT fishing trip , these 2 rods may wear you out so in places where the size of the fishes aren't worth these 2 rods , you may well be advised to consider a more forgiving rods that can handle the lures ( stickbait , pencil n surface poppers ) up to 125 gr. in weight ( w.o. armaments ) , my recommendation you take a look at TBL711/35RF .

Regards : Jon .
It's not what you don't know that gets you into trouble , it's what you know for sure that ain't so . Mark Twain .

Brandon Khoo

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I can add nothing to Jon's comments!
If it swims; I want to catch it!

Paul Taylor

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Jon,

Thanks for the advice.

I could only find reference to TBL80/30RF SHP what is the difference with the TBL711/35RF.

The rod I already have is the SP 78H SHP not the UHL, so I understand that mine is a lighter version with less drag and designed to cast slightly smaller lures.

The site I have been looking at is Plat, so I don't know if they show the full Carpenter range, I have trouble translating the Carpenter site for some reason.

Regards Paul