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Brandon Khoo

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Discussion on various trebles
February 01, 2011, 01:32:32 PM
this topic has been split from the thread on a trip report to New Caledonia in Janaury 2011 by Brandon Khoo. It continues a discussion on the use of lighter gauge trebles

ST-66s are not as strong as other hooks in the market but I don't see much difference between then and the Fishermans or Decoys in an equivalent size. Over time, I've straightened pretty much every hook in the market and even an ST-76 last year in Elusive. if a fish is able to exert direct pressure on the hook (s), it is going to be in trouble.

 The advantage of the thinner guage is it goes in much easier and I strongly suspect that I have better hook-ups with them than the heavier guage hooks. Conventional wisdom is to strike a few times really hard to drive the hooks home. After popping for so many years, I think I've come to the view that the striking is often futile if the fish has a solid hold of the lure in its teeth. In the past. I've been dumb enough to fish PE12 on a SP78UHL.   :o  ::) Yes, I know I was delusional but most of us go through that stage. I used to strike hard enough to pull a bloody tree down and I've still dropped fish almost instanteously after a few solid strikes.

I landed a 55kg, a 45kg and a couple of other slightly smaller fish during the five days on ST-66s. The only hook which was compromised was on the 55kg but that was after a 40 minutes fight and I did not lose the fish. I'd also point out Malcolm landed his monster using the Fisherman 6/0s which are not much stronger than the ST-66 in my opinion.

I just don't think the ST-66s are as weak as many people make them out to be and they do have the advantage of a lighter weight. Surface stickbaits in particular are very susceptible to weight and the heavier hooks dull their action. The difference in the action of a 200 Gamma between using ST-66s 5/0s and Decoy 10/0s is very significant.

It's a compromise at the end of the day and I am currently using the ST-66s again at this point in time.
Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 05:48:15 PM by Brandon Khoo
If it swims; I want to catch it!

Rick Smith

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Re: Discussion on various trebles
February 01, 2011, 06:14:17 PM
Ever hear of anybody using the 6x vmc trebles? I realize they are not especially popular...

Aaron Concord

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Re: Discussion on various trebles
February 01, 2011, 07:53:08 PM
Rick,

I still run 6x VMC's on smaller lures.
It's more about the lack of bigger sizes in the VMC's than their strength.
I had a bugger of a time re-fitting lures that needed bigger than 4/0's until the likes of Owner, Fisherman and Decoy trebles started to filter into the country.
Most GT lures require at least a 4/0 or larger and that's where the 5/0 to 10/0 sizes from the Japanese companies come into their own.

Brandon,
My largest GT came in on ST-66's too.  I feel the same way about penetration vs meaty looking reef pick style hooks.  A hook that is only partially into the fish will bend far more easily than a light hook that has jaw bone right up to the bend.
I stuffed up 4 big fish in a row off Townsville in 04 when I tried an 8/0 Recorder as a belly treble.
It didn't matter how hard I belted those fish using Eddie Kazama's big red Fisherman stick, they just fell out!
I had never had that happen before and I have been wary since.

Aaron.

Mark Harris

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Re: Discussion on various trebles
February 01, 2011, 08:07:38 PM
Brandon this is a very interesting subject and thanks for your updated insights. Hooks are probably far more important than other tackle that gets discussed far more widely!

I routinely use Owner ST76 in 5/0 and sometimes 4/0 on smaller poppers and sticks. Have steered away from ST66s as they look as they will not stand-up to a large GT. Fishermans and Recorders are right out due to the price (and the fact that Fisherman is not a hook maker!) and I don't especially like Decoys as I have straightened these.

The point about a better hookup from the thinner gauge hook had honestly never occurred to me. It does though make inherent sense. The fact that ST66s stood up to the almighty task you placed on them recently in New Cal tells me a lot. I can certainly see myself giving these smaller gauge hooks a go and saving a fair bit of money along the way.

If ST66s will stand up to large GTs then I guess Gamakatsu Treble 16s 5/0 probably will as well (?) as the steel size looks very similar. I have a few boxes of those stored away in the "look too flimsy" category :).
Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 08:31:25 PM by Mark Harris

Aaron Concord

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Re: Discussion on various trebles
February 01, 2011, 08:33:25 PM
Mark,

A lot of GT's including a couple of the bigger sized GT's landed on Nomad back in the early 2000's were on Treble 16 5/0's since there were nothing else around in a large treble.  Not in Australia anyway and certainly not in any quantity.
We bent a heap of them though we rarely lost a fish outright due to hook failure.
Admittedly, it was before the time of PE 10-12 class rods and 16+ kilos of drags too.
That was our motivation to look toward heavier hooks: the evolution in larger lures, heavier braid and mega drag settings.
It was a 'stop it or pop it' mentality in a number of locales where big GT's looked as though they needed a fair degree of bullying to stop them busting you up.
With the increase of drag and braid, all of the terminals were upgraded to a very heavy calibre, though I reckon we missed some great fish we should not have by sticking to slightly less heavy hooks.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.............

Aaron.

Mark Harris

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Re: Discussion on various trebles
February 01, 2011, 08:55:06 PM
Very interesting to hear all  that Aaron.

The ultra heavy gear fad did not last long with me  8) and I normally fish comfortable PE8 or at a push 8-10 rods, and poppers rarely heavier than 160 grams. But strangely with hooks I have tended to go for the heavy gauge.  I am now seriously re-thinking that....

On the Treble16 5/0s I have quite a lot stored away. I bought these for emergency use when ST76s were not available. Sadly, the supply of quality terminals in Bali is very patchy. Perhaps I will get those out again.

Some very good insights in this thread.
Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 09:00:04 PM by Mark Harris

Brandon Khoo

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Re: Discussion on various trebles
February 01, 2011, 09:02:33 PM
Mark, like a lot of other things with GT popping, it is all about the compromise and what is more important to the individual angler. It's like long rod better for casting, short rod, better for fighting a fish, short leader outside guides is better for casting but long leader gives you more protection and a myriad of other compromises.

I do feel a lot of anglers still have a propensity to go for gear that is too heavy. I often get asked about what PE12 outfit I recommend. I actually find this a contradiction in terms because in 95% of cases, I don't recommend PE12 outfits. Sure, even if you're strong enough to fish with PE12 which most anglers are not, You're going to cast like a dog with it. As I always say, as a general rule, the more territory you cover and the longer your lure is in the water, the more fish you will catch.

There is an unfortunate view that you need heavy gear in NC to cope with the big fish. The fact though, is that it is also very forgiving environment to fish in comparison to many spots in the Coral Sea and there are vast expanses of water to cover if you're going to fish successfully there. So, are you better off with a PE12 outfit you can cast 60m or a PE8 outfit you can cast 80m? It's a decision individual anglers need to make for themselves.

I also think that there is a lack of reality on the part of some anglers who think they can simply skulldrag a big GT out of a shallow rocky area. Sure, you might pull a 20kg or even 25kg fish out on heavy gear but try that on a fish that matters like a 40kg + fish. I remember making the comment after a discussion on PE12 on another thread some time back that in that kind of environment, it doesn't matter whether you're using PE8 or PE20 - you aren't pulling the fish out. Shoalwater is a great example. Nick Bowles from Oceanactive in Oman had some very good insights to this on another forum a few years back.

On the hooks, I do find the big heavy trebles like the Recorder 8/0s difficult to get good clean hook-ups with so I've gone back to the lighter gauge ST-66s. Kenji Konishi is the one who convinced me of this. So far, it's worked for me. I know it is only a matter of time before I have one straightened out but that has happened even with Recorder 8/0s. I used to fish quite a heavy drag but in the past couple of years, have eased right back so that in itself places less pressure on the hooks. I found that going hard on a fish with heavy drag and a powerful rod often served to really panic the fish and these fish would go crazy giving me a belting in the process.







If it swims; I want to catch it!

Mark Harris

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Re: Discussion on various trebles
February 01, 2011, 10:41:31 PM
Compromises all round for sure Brandon. Same with reels - when into a big fish I am sure most of us wish we had a nice slow SW 20000 on board instead of the usual high speed options which are so much better for working the lure.

On heavy set ups I  cannot agree more. I think far too many anglers fish with gear they are not really capable of handling. Formerly I would have stuck myself in that category, before I saw the light (of course :) ).  Although I have never caught a GT in the true NewCal monster category, I do also question the need for such heavy gear in most situations, even if you can handle it physically.  I was absolutely delighted to read that Malcolm used a Coral Viper with an SW10000/SOM 16000 to land that 65 kg NewCal fish :).  I have despaired on many occasions seeing a complete beginner, slight of build, with a Wild Violence (as an example) in their hands (usually for not very long!).

Your logic on hooks, reiterated by Aaron, makes complete sense to me and I thank you for making me think about this!

Luke Wyrsta

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Re: Discussion on various trebles
February 02, 2011, 08:40:34 AM
Some of the lighter guage trebles are fun to use! But there are limitations when you start talking about biggers lures and hook exposure.

I have fished ST-66 on GT to 52kg. I bent a hell of a lot, but incidentally they were probably from me pulling on little fish as opposed to big fish pulling on me ;)


Brandon Khoo

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Re: Discussion on various trebles
February 02, 2011, 12:29:14 PM
That is definitely the case. It's one of the reason why I still use the big Decoys on big poppers

But there are limitations when you start talking about biggers lures and hook exposure.

If it swims; I want to catch it!

Peter Morris

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Re: Discussion on various trebles
February 02, 2011, 03:27:34 PM
I must say I love the Decoy's due to their weight and very nice shape.

I have managed to straighten 6/0's but then again I had a Gamakatsu 6/0 recorder just simply 'Snap' last year too.


Pete

Jon Li

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Re: Discussion on various trebles
February 02, 2011, 05:10:04 PM
All trebles have limitations but my favourite are Owner STBL66 - 4/0 , Gamakatsu 22A - 4/0 , Decoy Big Saltwater 6/0 .

Have snapped Decoy GT Special 5/0 , straighten Owner STBL 5/0 and VMC trebles .

Nowaday am not fishing heavy tackles anymore , gone are my WV80XH n SP710H SHP and happier with CV79/40RF SHP n SP80M for my dedicated GT fishing .

Somewhat happy to see some are mellowing down in their choise of rods , at least I am not the only one getting older n weaker .

Jon .
Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 05:46:16 PM by Jon Li
It's not what you don't know that gets you into trouble , it's what you know for sure that ain't so . Mark Twain .

Mark Harris

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Re: Discussion on various trebles
February 02, 2011, 05:35:17 PM
I think VMC trebles come as standard with XRap Magnums? If so, first thing I do is take them off and give them away :).

Jon Li

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Re: Discussion on various trebles
February 02, 2011, 05:47:51 PM
I think VMC trebles come as standard with XRap Magnums? If so, first thing I do is take them off and give them away :).

Hi Mark ,

Even in my freshwater river fishing we remove the VCM trebles which come with the lures to a stronger ones such as Owner , Decoy or Gamakatsu .

Jon .
It's not what you don't know that gets you into trouble , it's what you know for sure that ain't so . Mark Twain .

Aaron Concord

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Re: Discussion on various trebles
February 02, 2011, 08:34:43 PM
Mark,

The X-Raps come with 4X VMC's.
I have some old 6X VMC's which look like a miniature ST-76 in gauge!
They don't bend too easily though they are too small for most GT poppers.

Aaron.