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Topwater Caranx Ignobilis: Giant Trevally (GT) => Tackle & Techniques => Topic started by: Jussi Saarinen on March 14, 2014, 05:14:03 AM
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During my recent trip to Oman, we landed 7 and lost 13 GTs. Of the ones we lost, 9(!) were lost either due to lines (7) or leaders (2) breaking (no reefing). This happened on three different spools - two Jigging Master 25000 Monster Spools and one Jigging Master 16000 Monster Spool. We were using new line - hollow core Jerry Brown and Toro Tamer in the 130 lb and 100 lb class. The two leaders that broke were made of Varivas 200 lb and 170 lb. Several of the line/leader breaks occured when the fish took the lure close to the boat.
Since we were fishing with high quality gear, we started discussing what could be the reason for the multiple line and leader breaks.
We concluded that the culprit was loosely spooled line, which occurs when casting and retrieving your lure. When fishing with high drag settings, there is a risk that the line cuts into the underlying line that is wound on to the reel under less pressure than the underlying line, resulting in the spool getting stuck. This risk is greatest when getting hit close to the boat, meaning that you have the most loosely spooled line on the spool. And fishing with stick baits is worse than poppers, since they make less resistence when being retrieved (we used poppers ~75% of the time). We also believe that the effect is pronounced when fishing with hollow core, which is softer than solid line in the same line class.
The possible solutions to this problem that we thought of were:
i) use solid line, instead of hollow core
ii) wind in the last 20-30 meters of the cast (to put more pressure on the line)
iii) cast and wind in the lure every X cast
iv) pull out 80-100 meter of line and wind it back on under pressure at the end of each day
We tried ii) and iv) and noticed a marked reduction of wind knots when doing this. However, we tried it too late this particular fishing trip to be able to compare the results of the different methods properly. Also, the proposed solutions all have their respective draw-backs.
So, my questions are: i) have you had the same experience/problem, ii) do you think there is another explanation to our problems and iii) do you have any other possible solution to the problem?
On my next trip, I will bring a couple of spools with solid PE line to see if there is any difference.
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Checked your guides and guide feet? Make sure one of them doesnt have a knick or imperfection which is damaging your line and leader.
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Hi Jussi,
Thanks for sharing your experience and findings.
Speaking from my own experiences and this is just my opinion so shoot me or agree with me, but this is my 2 cents worth ;D
I do not subscribe to the "high drag" way of fishing, instead I fish with a lighter drag setup and palm the spool to apply sufficient pressure as required. To date this has worked for me and I have suffered very few braid, leader or terminal tackle failures. A lighter drag setup would also be more forgiving for strikes closer to the boat. Obviously we all get reefed, and get cut off by the tail scutes from time to time, but that is part of the game.
If loosely packed line from a days fishing were the problem , I think a lot more anglers would experience this problem, so I am not entirely sure that is completely to blame, as long as your line is spooled under good tension, this should be more then sufficient. I can honestly say I have only experienced the problem of line bedding in on the spool twice and both times were due to my own laziness in spooling of the reel rather then because of excessive use ! Lesson learnt :-[
Something to consider perhaps is how you prepare your spools when spooling them. Are you using any backing and what type of backing are you putting down on the spool ? Obviously then the braid needs to be put on under good tension which I am sure you do.
Another thing to consider if you don't do it already, is use a different method of striking the fish near the boat as to put less impact on the knots and line. As you know braided line has no stretch and therefore the percentage of your impact on knots and weak spots are greatly increased the closer the strike is to the boat. Instead of using a solid heavy setting strike as one does when the fish take further out, use shorter, less powerful quicker jab type strikes with the rod parallel to the water, rather then tip up.
Just a few idea's to think about :)
Super interesting thread and look forward to all the input to follow
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Jussi,
Barry and I have been to the same school.
Regards,
Trev
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A few clarifications/additional information may be in place:
- The line was spooled onto all reels under +6 kg pressure using Frank's line spooler so no issues there.
- We were using pre-made wind-on leaders from Streamline, connected to the main line (HC) through a loop to loop connection, i.e. no knots.
- All line breaks happened between the reel and the l2l connection. Not one single break occured in the l2l.
- The two leaders that brooke were made of new Varivas 200 lb and 170 lb class. They may have had a knick in them but no visible damages (we check the leader repeatedly when fishing).
We are pretty sure that the reason for the breaks were a combination of the very tight underlying line and then relatively less tight line following the retrieve of the lure, using HC, high drag setting and getting hit close to the boat. This caused the line to dig into the more loosely spooled line causing the spool to lock for a moment (making the break redundant) and the line or leader breaking.
We observed this phenomenon in the evening, before the last fishing day when draggin out some 80-100 mtrs of line, while on land to retrieve it back under constant pressure. The spool then locked for a brief moment, however, we could then reduce the pressure and move the spindel/rotor arm before starting to pull out line again.
Another obervation we made is that the diameter of the JM MS 25000 is so wide that the spindel/rotor arm touches the side of the spool under pressure, but we didn't get the feeling that it was enough to casue the spool to lock down.
No issues with the guides on any of the three rods where this happened (checked all guides with a stocking).
I think reducing the initial drag setting could be a (partial) solution. However, I prefer not to touch the drag if possible once I have set the hook.
I am surprised that not more people have experienced the same problem.
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I run just a 2.5m leader and very heavy drags from boats, never had any mystery breakoffs like what you describe. If you are convinced its an issue of line packing on the spool, perhaps try wet packing your spools for greater compression. Most commercial fishermen will wet pack their large reels for the tightest pack possible. It could solve your problem?
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Nathan, all spools were originally spooled at high (+6 kg) pressure. The problem is that the last ca. 80 mtrs of line on the spool will not be as tight as the underlying (first ca. 200 mtrs) once you have made your first cast.
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Jussi, with the break-offs on the braid, are you finding that the braid is stuck on the spool? That is, the braid is stuck to the point where it is really really hard getting it loose again? If so, that would appear to be a contributing factor.
I also think you need to be careful fishing really heavy pre-set drag with 100lb as it simply is more susceptible to shock loading.
I have seen in the past bad batches from time to time where lines are problematic.
I am not familiar with Frank's spooler. How does it work? Are you still winding the line onto the reel or is it a machine where the spool is removed from the reel and inserted on a machine?
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It's the Busted Fishing manual spooler Brandon. Excellent piece of kit.
A bad batch of braid remains a possibility I think but perhaps less likely as two brands of line were involved.
Also it raises the thorny old question of fishing super high drags again, something I am inclined to do less and less.
If Jussi has evidence that the line was impacting as he says, then that remains the most likely culprit for the braid explosions I think?
For the two times that Varivas leader failed, then either a tail swipe or an unnoticed nick are probably the most likely reasons?
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Not necessarily - there were two brands but one was 100lb.
100lb braid won't handle really heavy drags as a strike setting and I've broken 130lb enough times to know it has a limit I can find. If you want to fish really heavy drags as a strike setting, i think you need to be thinking 150lb braid at least.
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Good point Brandon - could be at least two things going on I guess!
What is for sure is that our extreme brand of fishing is just brutal on equipment.
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Not necessarily - there were two brands but one was 100lb.
100lb braid won't handle really heavy drags as a strike setting and I've broken 130lb enough times to know it has a limit I can find. If you want to fish really heavy drags as a strike setting, i think you need to be thinking 150lb braid at least.
Hey Brandon are you refering to pe lines like varivas or spectra like JB, just curious due to the difference in their rating systems when you consider their diameter.
Sean
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I'm referring to 100lb or PE8 generally, Sean. It's one of the reasons why I have never been a convert to the ultra fine heavy braking strain braids.
Not necessarily - there were two brands but one was 100lb.
100lb braid won't handle really heavy drags as a strike setting and I've broken 130lb enough times to know it has a limit I can find. If you want to fish really heavy drags as a strike setting, i think you need to be thinking 150lb braid at least.
Hey Brandon are you refering to pe lines like varivas or spectra like JB, just curious due to the difference in their rating systems when you consider their diameter.
Sean
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Jussi,
Barry and I have been to the same school.
Regards,
Trev
Barry went to school??????!!!!!!!!!!????!!!!!!!
JK! Totally agree Barry! (Y)
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My 2 cents worth. When fishing heavy braid I set the hooks once on the initial strike and then as the fish is on its first run the drag is taken up. I know there is no pre set drag pressure then but with 100lb plus braking strain line things don't need to be that accurate. I use a rod and a half length of leader when popping and about 4m when jigging. I also find that the lay of line on the spool is better when done by hand using the reel rather than done on a machine. I always end up changing the spool spacers on new reels to get the line lay perfect also (Shimano).
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Is the problem that the OP described a common thing for many people? I have just never seen this before myself or amongst the guys over here.
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Brandon, the line was not stuck in the underlying line following the breaks.
I think that is because the underlying line (first ~200 mtrs) was manually spooled under high (+6 kg) pressure (with belt, gloves and many pauses :) ) and you only cast and rewind the outer/last 80 mtrs or so. There simply were not enough "loose" line to make it get stuck.
However, there were enough loose line to cause enough extra friction/tension when the fish was taking line against the heavy drag so that the relatively more loosely spooled line was pushed to the top/bottom of the spool to cause a temporary stop. The closer to the boat the strike occur, the more loose line you have on the spool.
We saw this happening when dragging out some 80-100 mtrs of line on land, against the same drag we were fishing with. When we stopped and turned the rotor, we could continue to pull out line and there was no clear "evidence" that the line had dug into the underlying line upon occular inspection.
Since this happened on three different spools, all with new line (JB130lb, TT130lb and TT100lb), I do not believe that a bad batch is the culprit.
Again, I am surprised that not more people have experienced similar problems.
I will shift to solid line on my next trip and also use SOM spools rather than JM spools and see what happens.
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Jussi, I have never experienced what you did in nearly 15 years of GT fishing. For the line to be so loose on the spool that you can noticeably pull line out without the spool moving ...... well, that is a real worry! Using hollow braid would not result in that.
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And this when using mostly poppers, which keeps more pressure on the line than stickbaits...
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Hi Jussi,
As I mentioned in my earlier post about proper spooling preparation. Have you not considered that you could be suffering from "braid slip" ??
The braid has nothing to bite into to (backing), so it actually just slides around on the drum of the spool ??
That would be about the only thing that could make sense to be the cause ? But with braid slip you would notice the line digging into the under laying line most of the time.
Like Brandon, I have never noticed this issue and I can not see how this problem could be caused from fishing with stickbaits and casting all day, everyone would be suffering from this problem if that were the case.
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I don't think I understand the problem any more ::)
I thought from our discussion that the line had impacted and jammed? But from your description above, that did not seem to happen.
I am lost on this one. Barry's idea is interesting but like him I am pretty sure that if the braid was slipping en-masse the line will have dug in.
The only time I had impacted line which resulted in a bust off left the braid MASSIVELY dug in... took serious effort to get it out again. This was not due to loose spooling but to the line finding a tiny channel between the main body of braid and the spool lip.
I am beginning to think that your drag settings were maybe just too high for the line you used. You mentioned fully tightened drag and then half a turn back. That is truly massive (on a Stella 18000 I am guessing) and not an initial drag setting I would even ever think about using.
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Barry, all spools where manually spooled, using Frank Fernkorn's Bee's Knees Reel Spooler (http://www.jdmtackle.com/product_view.php?product_id=2113) using some +6 kg pressure. I put TESA tape on all spools before spooling the line so there is no way that the line was slipping.
Mark, the line did dig into the more loosely spooled line (the last ~80 mtrs that had been out of the spool when casting), but not to the degree that it got "stuck". That happened once to me in Panama when I was stupid enough to let someone else spool on line on my reels. Then I had to dig out the line from the spool just as you described.
As I said, the thing happened to the third spool on land, but then I could ask my friend to stop pulling out the line, readjust the rotor arm and then continue. Obviously this is not possible with a +30 kg GT in the other end of the line. We never broke the line on this spool when fishing and I am currently trying to determine which line (JB or TT) I had spooled onto the two spools (one 130lb and one 100lb) that experienced all the break offs.
If it was the same brand on both these spools, that may be the answer why the lines broke. However, had we not stopped pulling out line on the third spool then something would have broken on this set up as well. The phenomenon was the same on all three spools/reels, all JM Monster Spools (two 25k and one 16k) with two different brands of Hollow Core - 130lb (two spools) and 100lb (one spool).
Will report back when I have been able to sort out the lines.
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Jussi, I am in a very similar boat to Mark. The only way the line would snap if it was stuck inside the spool would be if there was no give at all in it. That way, the fish either turns around or the line snaps.
It might be worth testing the line for shock loading. you don't need to get too scientific. Just tie a leader on secure the braid to something and see how much pressure it takes with a shock load to snap the line. 130lb should take a very sharp and hard load to snap it.
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I think the JM spool provides more drag than the stock spools. When the bail arm hits the spool, it is a self-reinforcing process (creating more drag). I found at home that there is physical contact between bail arm and spool when the drag is pulled at 14 kg and up (JM16000). Jussi, did you try to measure the drag when you came home?
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I haven't tested the drag yet, but I just realized, upon inspection, that the five GTs I landed on my 2008 Stella 18000 have ruined the reel. The whole part where the rotor arm is attached is bent! (Will try to resize the pictures and post them.)
Mark, the drag was set at max and then turned back 3/4 of one turn.
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That is not very well designed!! Any system is only as strong as its weakest point.
It could be that when the bail arm hits the spool, it's causing enough of a jerk to snap the line.
Jussi, warped rotors are a pretty common occurrence in GT fishing. Depending on how bad it is, the reel may still work fine.
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Could it be possible that the ceramic on your roller arm is nicked causing the braid to break?
I had that happen to 2 of my reels during the same trip as the washers were already worn and lost alot of fish.
Last year I was using a JM 25000 spool and had line dig in as well when a dogtooth came up very near the boat to take my lure. The line dug into the spool and the 130lb braid broke. I had assumed it was due to my poor initial line packing
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Chris, I was leaving it for you to raise the point on the bail roller! ;D
It's very interesting that you've experienced the same with a JM spool
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Just on JM Monster Spools.... I bought one and I immediately noticed that is was grazing the rotor on a 18000. Under load that would get very serious. It is a piece of kit to be avoided IMO and I gave mine to a local friend who uses it on a 20000 for jigging, so far without trouble.
For GT fishing there are no circumstances I can think of where a 25000 size spool is necessary? Possibly has applications for big Tuna? But I still would not put one an an 18000 having witnessed that it is in fact too big for the rotor.
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On the monster spools its worth noting that they have a more conventional designed drag than the original stella spools and have an increased start up inertia as well as a higher maximum drag. Id say as mentioned previously, the line simply couldn't cope with the shock load when fishing that high a drag along with the starting inertia and a bit of loose line.
Personally I don't see the need for aftermarket spools when fishing anything over the 10000 size as the original stella spools provide the best drag system particularly in terms of smoothness. if line capacity was an issue id go the 20000 max spool over the others.
Sean
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Sean, I agree with you that the JM spools are tougher to "get going" but all break offs occoured well into the run, i.e. not when the hook was set or at the start of the run when the shock load is highest.
As said, lines got stuck on three and broke on two different reels and I checked the ceramics on the rotor arm with a stocking when checking the guides on both rods. No issues there.
I will not use the JM25k on my Stella 18ks going fwd. I will only use them on my 20k. I have ordered two SOM 25k spools as replacements and will spool them with solid braid. Practising my FG knot as I write...
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Do SOM do a 25K spool? If so I would treat that with caution as well as it probably will not fit properly.
SOM 20000 for example touches the rotor of a Stella SWB18000.
You don't really need bigger spools for GT fishing. For spares you could order factory Stella 18000s (or 20000s) or use a SOM 18000.
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Sorry Mark, I bought two NL 08SW18000 Spools (http://www.jdmtackle.com/product_view.php?product_id=1567). They should fit both the 2008 and 2013 model.
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Checked the lines and the 130 lb that broke was Toro Tamer and the 100 lb Jerry Brown so no help there...
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Jussi, everyone is pretty much saying that is not necessary to use an aftermarket spool when fishing for GT's, the stock spools are the best out there. Is there really such a need to "bling" a reel and risk it underperforming and failing while fishing for maybe the looks factor?
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It is really useful having spare spools ready and rigged to go.
On Jorge's point, you can just buy Stella spools as spares Jussi. Or SOMs in the correct size.
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Sean, I agree with you that the JM spools are tougher to "get going" but all break offs occoured well into the run, i.e. not when the hook was set or at the start of the run when the shock load is highest.
As said, lines got stuck on three and broke on two different reels and I checked the ceramics on the rotor arm with a stocking when checking the guides on both rods. No issues there.
I will not use the JM25k on my Stella 18ks going fwd. I will only use them on my 20k. I have ordered two SOM 25k spools as replacements and will spool them with solid braid. Practising my FG knot as I write...
I've seen the JM monster spool "fail", I.E, it touches the rotor thus under heavy drag causing a big spike in pressure. It really is too big for 08' SW Stella.