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Topwater Caranx Ignobilis: Giant Trevally (GT) => Tackle & Techniques => Topic started by: Gareth Branicki on November 06, 2010, 12:52:33 AM
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Thanks for all the previous help on twisted leaders grabbed some black magic for practicing using 2 methods one with powerdrill when my wife is in a good mood and the other by looping it around a metal post in the backyard and and tying to the bail of a spinning reel doing alright also thanks for the photos somewhere on the forum in regards to the braid join and making sure the braid doesn't bunch up at the top of the loop. One coment i got in my twisted leaders post was to learn single knot connections.
I am fine with the pr knot but i am wondring how short i can realistically get away with in terms of lenght of the wrapped part and the overall length as i would like to cast this through the guides without fear that it will take a guide out. Can it be used inside the guides or only outside .
I have tried repeatedly to tie the fg knot watched heaps of utube etc till nearly going insane, i have small hands and they are not very dextrous as for the vids that show the wrist twising method i am hopless. considered getting the ezy knotter but tend to only trust knots ive tied by hand myself wether a bimini improved allbright uni double uni etc can do all of these on the rocks without even thinking but the fg knot has got me stumped if anybody lives in brisbane or knows where i can get a good demonstation of this knot would be great as i'm so close to throwing the towel in after over a year of playing wth this particular knot
cheers
gareth
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Gareth, have a chat to Doug Lindsay, he can show you the basic technique. Then open a bottle wine and practice, practice, practice - you'll have it nailed before you know it.
They still take a little time to tie (a bit longer than a double uni - and youl need to carry a lighter) but the results are well worth the effort.
And yes, you are doing all this, so they can go through the guides.
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An easy way to make twisted leaders on your own:
1. Big overhand loop in 100lb mono to put over trailer hitch or similar anchor point
2. pull out about 6m of line and cut, put this end in the drill chuck.
3. Twist single strand of mono until you feel it shorten by about a foot, usually takes about 30-40 sec on high speed. Make sure you keep the line under reasonable tension so it doesn't twist yet.
4. Now with the drill in hand still connected to the line double it around another anchor point, I use a screw driver in a rod holder on the boat. Keep the tension on not twisting yet.
5. Grab the loop off the trailer hitch and put it on the handle of the power drill so you now have the line doubled over the screwdriver and both ends on the drill but appart by about 6 inches.
6. Put the drill on the floor, make sure the line doesn't twist yet until you can take the loop end off the screwdriver
7. Carefully let the line start to twist back towards the drill
8. Tie a granny knot in the drill end and it is done. you can then do 4 strand bite section by hand
This sounds complicated but it is a lot easier than typing it out and it will produce a nice tight leader, give it a go
FG is not a difficult knot but it's much easier to learn if shown, and there's lots of ways to do it!
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Thanks for the replies peter i will give doug a bell and see when on a weekend his got a small bit of time to run through it with me . Chris thanks for the extra help with the twisties defiantly give that a go
cheers gareth
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I'm now into a hybrid 'Sebile' and 'FG' knot, have a look at the Sebile knot on You-Tube and do the cross-wraps that way from the rod tip, then finish with the half hitches as a normal FG knot.
How to tie a Sebile Knot by Jay Withers a Saltyshores How to Series. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N0mCf0AIAA#ws)
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Wow, even I will be able to tie the Sebile knot, and I am a complete knot tying muppet
Has anyone used it in heavy applications like GT fishing or jigging? no problems?
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I'm now into a hybrid 'Sebile' and 'FG' knot, have a look at the Sebile knot on You-Tube and do the cross-wraps that way from the rod tip, then finish with the half hitches as a normal FG knot.
Wouldn't call it a hybrid Sebile/FG knot Greg....if you are simply doing the method to form the wraps as per the video then finishing with half hiches as per FG - many Japanese form their wraps as per the video, which I have also found works a lot better for me than the hand twisting method.
It was again shown to me by several anglers in Japan.
The only thing different to the FG knot is the overhand knots they are forming...
Interesting video - thanks for sharing! Not sure about 100% knot strength :P
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Ditto what Luke said, it's an FG knot tied without the consistent pressure that the hand twisting method applies. Also isn't a multi turn overhand knot the same as a rizutto finish once it's finished?
Good vid, simplifies it well. I've tied a few FG's offshore on the kayak, prefer uni to uni now if I have to re rig.
Cheers
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Great posting.
It's simple and you can tie it real quick.
Thank you for sharing.
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No breakages here Scott, I have done some test runs with short 100lb leader and 80lb Braid over the scales to 20kg with no hassles.
The line in one hand plus off the Rod tip seems to give enough pressure, more than off my fingers alone anyway, and once it is tightened up (before the hitches) it bites in no worries ;D.
Bit suss on the 100% claim too Luke :-\.
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thanks greg for posting much easier than hand twisting for somone whos hands are not most dextrous . Luke you mentioned in your post that many japanese use this method for the warpping stage This is the area which i have had problems . I will stick to the traditonal finish for the fg half /hitches etc . Is there a disadvanted doing the wraps this way . As there is little pressure . Thanks all f0r the replies
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Just an update on my long going struggle with the fg knot . Peter C haven't had time to call Doug at a convenient hour but ewill when get back next week .
However using a technique i found no problems now with the wraps or the initial half hitches however due to using only 80 pound jb solid and very 170 lb leader found when testing that the half hitches straight after the wraps were undoing as for the half hitches braid to braid also undid and left the finished knot looking wrong .
Have since using gloves and teeth really tightened the half hitches straight after the wraps and decided to use the rizitto finish seems much neatly .
today put on the leather gloves attached a length of line to a post in the yard wound the leader over the handles of one of my kids old scooters and pulled as hard as i could .'
The braid broke 4 cm down from the knot which was still in-tack so finally think i might actually have this knot still take over 4 minutes but finally finding some light at the end of the tunnel lol ;D
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Gareth, a couple of really important things when tying the FG;
1) After you do the initial half hitches (the same sided ones around both the leader and main line) - tighten the living daylights out of it with gloves on both hands - as tight as you dare. You should see the braid 'bite' into the leader as it slips ever so slightly, which fuses the whole lot together. - THEN do the final hitches around the main line!
2) burn over the tag of the leader and the tag of the braid with a lighter.
If you do this, the hitches should not come undone!
Cheers PC.
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I suppose if you can't do the twists for a FG knot, this might be useful but realistically, once you learn it, you can literally do the twists for a FG in a matter of seconds. It's worth learning instead of going through this rigmarole.
A couple of years ago, Rob Ciotucha and I did quite a number of tests to destruction on the FG and PR knot and one very interesting characteristic we found on both knots was that it was important to do the half hitches down the braid to complete the knot. It is not a matter of slippage but it was very apparent that for some reason, the knot where you did the half hitches down the braid had more resistance to a shock load. We couldn't really understand why this was the case but it we did at least twenty tests of this.
I'd suggest the 100% knot strength statement is a fantasy.
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I suppose if you can't do the twists for a FG knot, this might be useful but realistically, once you learn it, you can literally do the twists for a FG in a matter of seconds. It's worth learning instead of going through this rigmarole.
A couple of years ago, Rob Ciotucha and I did quite a number of tests to destruction on the FG and PR knot and one very interesting characteristic we found on both knots was that it was important to do the half hitches down the braid to complete the knot. It is not a matter of slippage but it was very apparent that for some reason, the knot where you did the half hitches down the braid had more resistance to a shock load. We couldn't really understand why this was the case but it we did at least twenty tests of this.
I'd suggest the 100% knot strength statement is a fantasy.
Do you find that burning the leader to a mushroom head necessary Brandon ? It's very tricky to do it on a rocky boat. The skipper in NZ didn't really bother with burning the leader and he said it doesn't really make much of a difference as long as the half hitches and wraps are tight.
Last thing you want to do is burn the mainline braid and have to redo the knot all over again :-[
Also is 2 inch of wraps on the PR knot sufficient ?
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if you are not going to burn the tip, I think it would be a good idea to leave a short tag end on the leader to ensure that a tiny slippage isn't fatal. Until the criss-crosses bite in, there will always be a bit of slippage so you need to watch out for this. I very rarely have to do that because I carry spare spools with pre-tied leaders on them.
I don't think two inches is even necessary for a PR knot. I've tested the knot down to a one inch segment and it didn't slip but I have to admit that I use about two inches myself - nice to have some safety margin. Obviously you will need to test your own knot to establish what you can get away with
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2) burn over the tag of the leader and the tag of the braid with a lighter.
Turns out they're totally unnecessary, but if it makes you feel better about the know then go ahead!
Sportfishing mag did a knot challenge awhile back, and the winner was an FG knot, but with a tapered mono tag!
Check the article here; Sports Fishing Knot Challenge (http://www.sportfishingmag.com/techniques/natural-baits-and-terminal-rigs/sport-fishing-knot-challenge-1000084846.html)
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2) burn over the tag of the leader and the tag of the braid with a lighter.
Turns out they're totally unnecessary, but if it makes you feel better about the know then go ahead!
Sportfishing mag did a knot challenge awhile back, and the winner was an FG knot, but with a tapered mono tag!
Check the article here; Sports Fishing Knot Challenge (http://www.sportfishingmag.com/techniques/natural-baits-and-terminal-rigs/sport-fishing-knot-challenge-1000084846.html)
LOL. I wouldn't go trusting any magazine article - as reputable as publication as they may be!
I think it's best to trust one's own preferences and ability to tie knots.
Never heard of a tapered FG, and have not seen one tied like that.
Not all knot tiers are made equal.
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Doubled FG too...
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defiantly dont blieve in any knot being 100 percent brandon i put the braid breaking down to some wear and the the finish i put on the end of it . Brandon using the 80 lb solid which diameter is somwhere between pe 7 and 8 the half hitches on the briad look out of place and felt odd since i am using such a heavy leader 170 lb also when i have tried testing the half hitches there seem to be the first to go mayby need to tighten them up a lot more.
Peter i did use goves and tightend the half hitches after the wraps till i was blue defiantly makes an improvement.
cheers
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I like to pull my FG's up tight after the hitches around both leader and braid. Its a confidence thing I guess, I know it won't slip.
After this I do the hitches around the braid mainline with no mushroom.
I now use this knot for barramundi using 30lb braid to 60lb leader. A bit finicky to tie but works a treat.
Ken
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LOL. I wouldn't go trusting any magazine article - as reputable as publication as they may be!
I think it's best to trust one's own preferences and ability to tie knots.
Never heard of a tapered FG, and have not seen one tied like that.
Not all knot tiers are made equal.
I didn't trust the mag, I did my own testing. Out the front of my house, hanging scuba weights in a bucket. I found that once I had the crosswraps done, the half hitches etc were completely irrelevant to know strength, right up to the point of only going a couple to stop the crosswraps from coming undone.
I agree its best that you learn how to tie a knot well and use it.
Just adding to Brandon's comment about anecdotal evidence that the mono tag end ball is unnecessary.
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LOL. I wouldn't go trusting any magazine article - as reputable as publication as they may be!
I think it's best to trust one's own preferences and ability to tie knots.
Never heard of a tapered FG, and have not seen one tied like that.
Not all knot tiers are made equal.
I didn't trust the mag, I did my own testing. Out the front of my house, hanging scuba weights in a bucket. I found that once I had the crosswraps done, the half hitches etc were completely irrelevant to know strength, right up to the point of only going a couple to stop the crosswraps from coming undone.
I agree its best that you learn how to tie a knot well and use it.
Just adding to Brandon's comment about anecdotal evidence that the mono tag end ball is unnecessary.
Sure.
You may want to add a shock load to that test. A test such as yours is only one part of an adequate test.
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Do you find that burning the leader to a mushroom head necessary Brandon ? It's very tricky to do it on a rocky boat. The skipper in NZ didn't really bother with burning the leader and he said it doesn't really make much of a difference as long as the half hitches and wraps are tight.
Last thing you want to do is burn the mainline braid and have to redo the knot all over again :-[
Also is 2 inch of wraps on the PR knot sufficient ?
I think both burning the leader to the mushroom head and doing the final braid cut after the last half hitches is best done with a Bouz braid cutter. This little gizmo allows precision with fire in a confident way - very different to losing a normal lighter. And it is totally windproof for use on a boat. I am usually not one for fancy gizmos but I never go fishing without this one.
(http://www.nomadtackle.ashop.com.au/pictures/6159/4/2346594-1.jpg)
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Gareth, you don't have to crank up each half hitch itself, the idea is to set the entire knot after the half hitches are done (just keep them firm)! You gotta remember the knot is designed to slip slightly (very slightly) in order to bite into the leader.
Luke, I have had one or two FG's "back out" without burning the end of the leader over, obviously not tightened enough. This has followed repeated casting (Ie loading and unloading the line) without hookups (more intense pressure). This hasn't happened to me with the leader end burned over.
The way the knot is structured, if the first wraps on the leader are pushed toward the half hitch end of the knot (which is the direction of pressure the guides can exert on the wraps during casting) the knot can slide. I've noticed, the longer the wrap section that is tied, the more prone these first wraps are to sliding, due to the fact that friction at the hitch end of a 'long' knot prevents the first wraps from being tensioned by the tensioning process!
As such, I've found a 'long' knot, potentially less reliable than a short knot (I preface that by saying an innadequately tensioned 'long' knot)!
For what its worth, I know tie about 1/2 inch of wraps in PE6 (3/4 inch in PE8), 8 full hitches (one way), 6 mainline hitches (alternating) and burn the leader end and braid tag (the braid tag is just to stop it fraying) - haven't had any issues since!
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I've noticed, the longer the wrap section that is tied, the more prone these first wraps are to sliding, due to the fact that friction at the hitch end of a 'long' knot prevents the first wraps from being tensioned by the tensioning process!
As such, I've found a 'long' knot, potentially less reliable than a short knot (I preface that by saying an innadequately tensioned 'long' knot)!
I noticed the exact same thing Peter. With PE8 and PE10 line, any more than 12 weaves/wraps in a FG seems to be superfluous as the first ones seem to slip. With lighter lines though, it seems to be more like 15.
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Agreed. Mine rarely exceed 1.5 inches.
Brandon also showed me that he prefers a smaller FG.
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so you guys are only doing 12-15 wraps for the fg? are you pulling them tight and making the braid gram in every 5 turns or so? I try to keep the tension on as much as possible when doing the wraps, but i am finding it difficult to get the whole knot to grab onto the leader.
after the half hitches, i will pull the leader and the braid in opposite directions, the braid then grabs into the leader, but only the last 2/3 grabs, the first part of the knot looks the same as originally wrapped. is this an issue? does the whole knot need to grab? if so, what am I doing wrong?
Cheers
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exactly what I was going to respond with. A shock load is different test altogether.
I actually tried this for a while using lighter gear and while it worked, I had one instance where a big strike saw me lose the leader and lure.
In any event, go with what you're comfortable using. If you trust it, by all means, use it but for me, I'll continue to have the little burnt knob.
LOL. I wouldn't go trusting any magazine article - as reputable as publication as they may be!
I think it's best to trust one's own preferences and ability to tie knots.
Never heard of a tapered FG, and have not seen one tied like that.
Not all knot tiers are made equal.
I didn't trust the mag, I did my own testing. Out the front of my house, hanging scuba weights in a bucket. I found that once I had the crosswraps done, the half hitches etc were completely irrelevant to know strength, right up to the point of only going a couple to stop the crosswraps from coming undone.
I agree its best that you learn how to tie a knot well and use it.
Just adding to Brandon's comment about anecdotal evidence that the mono tag end ball is unnecessary.
Sure.
You may want to add a shock load to that test. A test such as yours is only one part of an adequate test.
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12 weaved wraps for an FG yes Gavin. That's enough I believe. I tighten 'casually' every 3 weaves, so four times.
How many half hitches are doing before the BIG tighten? I do 3 or 4 only then a gut-wrenching tighten before doing the rest of the half hitches and another big pull. If you do that the weaved section as well as the first few half hitches should tighten noticeably and really grip into the leader.
Different folks will have their own little variations on the precision of tying an FG but the principle is always the same.
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Gavin, see my post above, the further down the knot you get away from the hitch end, the less it will bite (as you tension it) - you'll eventually get to the point when further wraps simply will not tension at all. If about 2/3 are visibly biting that would sound about right to me, I'm finding about 12 - 15 turns does the trick too.
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Mark love info on the bouz lighter nomad stocks them hate burning my finger tips with the lighter .
Peter with the 80 lb i using about 18 wraps length which ends up jsut with wraps about nearly 2 cm have really tightend the wraps last one felt as if i had used my pr bobbin your mentioned the knot requires some slippage am i tying the wraps to tight
cheers
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As well as avoiding burning your fingers Gareth, the Bouz cutter is windproof and most importantly makes sure that the heat does not get too close to the business areas of the knot.
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Gareth, the amount of slipping is minute (its probably 0.5 mm or so), you will know the knot has bitten as the braid changes colour ever so slightly (closest to the hitches) as the heat from the slipping braid fuses it onto the mono - look real close! If you are using yellow braid it will go slightly darker.
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Gareth, the amount of slipping is minute (its probably 0.5 mm or so), you will know the knot has bitten as the braid changes colour ever so slightly (closest to the hitches) as the heat from the slipping braid fuses it onto the mono - look real close! If you are using yellow braid it will go slightly darker.
Hi Peter ,
Good observation , it pays to lubricate the knot as it is being pulled on both ends , I use water to help dissipate the heat when doing MidKnot .
Jon .
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Yes good point Jon, Ill try that!