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Topwater Caranx Ignobilis: Giant Trevally (GT) => Tackle & Techniques => Topic started by: Simon Oakley on September 30, 2008, 11:28:04 AM
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I went into a local tackle shop on the week end and I noticed a bunch of what I thought was Fisherman, Carpenter and HammerHead Poppers on closer inspection I found they were all copies and were sold under the name Luars Lures. They are all through wires and weighted the same as the originals
They had copied the Fisherman-Bigmouth, S-Pop, Carpenter-Seafrog, Shifuroggu, Hammerhead-Tobi ect to name just a few.
Whoever got these copied knew the best selling (most common) ones.
Apparently these Luars Lures are exclusive to a chain of indepndent tackle stores around Australia and most retailed for between $30 and $40 each.
What I wanted to know was I have been on some of these Japanese manufacturers website that have said be on the lookout for copies and they will take legal action against anyone that does copy them but will they have a leg to stand on being the Lures aren't sold in Japan?
Do they have an International Patient?
What is Everyones thoughts on this?
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Simon, there are copies everywhere. It is not so easy to initiate a breach of copyright action as they really only need to change one minor aspect to avoid any breach. It is also very expensive and not worth the while of these small Japanese companies to pursue such actions.
All I can say is you tend to get what you pay for. The wiring and terminals and finish from the premium lures are nearly always way superior to the copies.
The Sea Frog has been often copied but almost never replicated in performance.
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Hi Simon
I am not a fan of copies at all, and I'm not just talking about lures. They (copies) are usually not up to the standard of the originals they try to mimic. What really pi$$es me off is they try to ride on the back of someone elses hard work & turn out mass produced product with no thought about what they are trying to make (except dollars), these lures may look the same on the surface but the intricacies in making a lure work well go a good bit deeper than just looks.
My 2 cents
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When someone says the name copy they straight away think that the copy is inferior but I can tell you now these copies are pretty good quality.
They come unrigged but they use heavy gauge stainless wire and swivels and although the paint jobs isn't the quality of the originals it is pretty good and will take quite a beating.
Go into Tackle World and check them out I can almost guarantee if you are keen on some heavy duty poppers for the price you will like what you see.
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I'm not sure how much impact these replicas actually have on the original manufacturers. Companies like Fisherman, Carpenter, Craftbait, Hammerhead etc sell all the lures that they make without any trouble. They aim for a segment of the market where people will pay for the tried and proven.
Simon, I think it is very much a case of each to their own. Some people don't like replicas for what they are - which is expoiting someone else's hard work. I've also found that while many of these look the goods, they have not performed like the originals. I haven't found one of these replicas which is up to the quality of the originals and with what time I have for fishing, I rather stick to the tried and true.
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I believe the recent case happened to the Patriot Design jig...in this case 2 of their design jigs are being copied in South East Asia....check out the link below, Matsutani himself posted the warning about the copy....
http://www.fishingouting.com/forums/f11/imitation-warninng-japan-pd-2832/
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I'm not for knock off either and I would say these aren't as good as the originals but I can say they aren't far behind.
You can see on some of them that they have internal weights ect (you can just see where they have been bodged up) just like the originals.
If you get the original take it all apart and use exactly the same components and have them weighted exactly the same how can it be greatly inferior from the original and at half the price I think there is going to be a lot of people that would buy the originals that will at least try these "knock offs".
I can tell you this much I will beat money at least 25% of the people who read this will at least go and check them out and being more readily available as well as less expensive (1/2 the price) then the originals I beat they sell a truck load of them (more then the originals) not to mention a lot of people that don't know what a Fisherman - Bigmouth or a Carpenter - Seafrog or even a Hammerhead - Tobi looks like that are just getting into Popping.
Look how hard it is to get any of those Name Brand Japanese Lures in Australia and no one carries any stock so they are going to sell a ton more then the originals.
The first thing I said to the guy in the tackle shop when I saw them was someone is going to get there arse kicked. It would probably be different if they had changed something on them or only had one or two out of the whole range that were copies but the whole lot were copies there is about 12 different Poppers and all are copies of proven Japanese originals.
They even had on the header tag something like this "These Lures Are Tried and Proven To Catch Fish" or something like that.
Its sad that whoever has a good idea and has spent the time developing the originals will have someone just copy them and profit from it.
I don't know if any of you read "The Australia Tackle Retailer" that most of the tackle shops get to show case new products. There was an article in their a couple of months ago where Ben from Halco Tackle was having a bitch about a company from China had copied there lures right down to the paintjob and patiented locking bib that won best new lure in the Chinese National tackle show and it was a Halco copy.
Well it looks like its not only the Chinese that copy good ideas but Australians as well.
I suppose you can look at anything in the tackle industry it always runs on copy's one season someone brings out something that a real revolution then a few months later 10 company's have all copied it.
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actually Simon, I would wager that the poppers you saw are all made in China. For a lure to sell at $30-$40, it's wholesale cost would have to be something like $10-$15. They sure can't produce lures at that cost here.
Apart from the fact that it grates like hell for the small Japanese companies to see knock-offs, it doesn't impact them from a sales perspective as their lures disappear very quickly upon release and they are selling everything they make and leaving demand out there that isn't met.
You make a fair point on availability and I think you're right - at those prices, they will sell a lot of them.
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We all know that there is nothing like the real thing!!!
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I will wager they were made in China or Taiwan or Thailand ect as well but were made for an Australian Company at there request.
I work in the tackle industry so I have a fare idea where things are made. I also know you cant beat Japanese quality.
Actually I have some Popping and Jigging blanks being made in Japan as we speak.
There is 4 models in the Popping range that go from PE5 to PE10
In the Jigging range I have 6 models from PE2 to PE10
The manufacturer of these blanks also builds blanks for company's like Fisherman, Carpenter, SevenSea's ect but to there design
The blanks will be made in Japan but the rods will be built here.
I am still tossing up if I will offer the blanks for sale I may just do that considering you cant really buy Japanese blanks (well except for one over rated brand).
The guy I am working with in Japan is the Guru of Jigging and Popping blank design.
I have Trade Marked a pretty shit hot name as well that they will be sold under.
Thanks
regards
Simon
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Your only four posts are spent "wondering" about this new range of knock off poppers that replicate the big japanese brands and then you go onto say you supposedly work in the tackle industry and have commissioned a whole bunch of blanks that you'll bring into australia and build up to replicate the big japanese brands....
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Hi Simon
I am not a fan of copies at all, and I'm not just talking about lures. They (copies) are usually not up to the standard of the originals they try to mimic. What really pi$$es me off is they try to ride on the back of someone elses hard work & turn out mass produced product with no thought about what they are trying to make (except dollars), these lures may look the same on the surface but the intricacies in making a lure work well go a good bit deeper than just looks.
My 2 cents
fair point Chris, and I generally agree. For instance, I have seen quite a few copies of Nilsmaster lures and even tried a few of the cheaper replicas, but found that none of them worked nearly as well as the original Finnish masterpieces, nor were made with the same quality.
However, I am getting into making some stickbaits and poppers for my own use. And given that I am leaping into this activity with bugger-all clue about what lures are best and why, I have found it necessary to examine the top quality products such as Nomad/Blackjack/Heru lures and try to replicate these. If the copying of a product is for ones' own use and not for retail purposes, is imitation a bad thing? At any rate, don't they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery? ;)
Interesting topic, BTW.
Cheers
Angus
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Simon - could I ask who the manufacturer of the blanks is who is purportedly making blanks for Fisherman, Carpenter and Sevenseas?
I will wager they were made in China or Taiwan or Thailand ect as well but were made for an Australian Company at there request.
I work in the tackle industry so I have a fare idea where things are made. I also know you cant beat Japanese quality.
Actually I have some Popping and Jigging blanks being made in Japan as we speak.
There is 4 models in the Popping range that go from PE5 to PE10
In the Jigging range I have 6 models from PE2 to PE10
The manufacturer of these blanks also builds blanks for company's like Fisherman, Carpenter, SevenSea's ect but to there design
The blanks will be made in Japan but the rods will be built here.
I am still tossing up if I will offer the blanks for sale I may just do that considering you cant really buy Japanese blanks (well except for one over rated brand).
The guy I am working with in Japan is the Guru of Jigging and Popping blank design.
I have Trade Marked a pretty shit hot name as well that they will be sold under.
Thanks
regards
Simon
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Angus.. I think its great that you are making your own lures, and I agree there is nothing wrong with copying for your own use. I am willing to bet that after you copy a few you will start to understand the why's and wherefore's and then start making your own shapes. It is through those same processes that ALL of the great lures are born, they evolve from ingenuity and imagination from people asking "what if" . Without that sort of thinking nothing would evolve and we would still be useing Huckleberry Fin fishing poles, Imagine how easy they would be to copy. :P
Cheers Chris
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Your only four posts are spent "wondering" about this new range of knock off poppers that replicate the big japanese brands and then you go onto say you supposedly work in the tackle industry and have commissioned a whole bunch of blanks that you'll bring into australia and build up to replicate the big japanese brands
For a start do you think any of the Japanese manufacturers that deal with these Japanese tackle company's would copy one of there Japanese customers blanks to sell to an Australian customer.
I don't know if you have ever dealt with anyone from Japan but they don't do that kind of thing. I didn't ship blanks or rods over to them in Japan and say here I want you to copy this Fisherman or Carpenter rod.
Who the hell would make quality Jigging and Popping blanks here in Australia, Pacific Composites, Synderglas ? The reason the Japanese blanks and rods are so good is because they use the Japanese High-Tec carbons that are only made in Japan.
The blanks I am having made are so much different to what the Japanese use now. My blanks are not as light as most of the Japanese tackle company's but are much stronger . How about a PE10, 7'10", 250gram cast weight popping rod that can take over 20Kg's of drag and are only 20% heavier then the average Japanese blank (built up it's still over 80grams lighter then the Shimano GT Special that everyone talks up around here and a hell of a lot stronger). The GT special I would rate as PE10 but because it can only take 12KG's of drag I think they rated it PE8 (My PE10 is around the same in power)
All of the Japanese tackle company's go for weight over strength I went for something different so how the hell can that be a copy.
I don't know what 4 post have to do with anything.
I have a rod manufacturing company (OzRods or The Australian Rod Company Pty Ltd) and import and distribute tackle mostly blanks and rod building components for company's like Batson Enterprises (ALPS), Lamiglas, Seeker, Swifty Manufacturing, American Tackle Company, Flex Coat, Pacific Bay, Matagi as well as others so that's the supposed tackle industry I am in.
Angus
If you are making lures for yourself or even your mates I don't think anyone will have a problem.
I don't even have a problem someone using an original as the base or concept for there design as long as it's not a exact copy.
Brandon
I wont say on an open forum who the exact manufacturer is but Japan only has 2 large Blank manufacturing company's as well as a number of very small ones.
Daiko is one of them and Tenryu is another but some of the small tackle company's do build there own blanks. I believe that Ripple Fisher manufacturer there own blanks.
I would have to say that 80% of blanks that are made in Japan come from those 2 company's. Another thing that most people don't know is a couple of mid sized tackle company's in Japan actually have a lot of there blanks made in Taiwan but the rods get built in Japan. Not all of there blanks are made in Taiwan just certain models
Like I said this guy in Japan that I am dealing with is in actual fact the designer for most of these gun tackle company's they just tell him what they want and he goes to work from there.
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All,
Please settle down.
Let's keep sledging to a minimum - some in moderation is fine.
Any more BS or self-promotion bordering on excessive, will see further action taken - so far ok but please keep in mind that we are trying to keep a high standard in what is the world's best GT popping resource.
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Luke ,
This is what I call measured moderation , good on you !
Jon .
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Luke,
Right on the money, mate.
As for people who infringe on Copyright & design for max profit, may
K A R M A get you!!!!!!!!!!
Aaron.
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I am sorry to have to make my first post on this forum which I have enjoyed and learnt so much from in this fashion, but there is more to this story which I feel readers should be made aware of.
I was in the tackle shop in question a few weeks ago now and there were a pile of simons rod blanks down the back of the shop. When I asked the guys there about them they informed me that simon had dropped them in to try and sell through the shop. Most of the blanks where all from america with a particular brand simon was promoting heavily as and I quote " AN EXACT COPY of the calstar blanks".
This is the biggest case of the pot calling the kettle black I have seen in a long time and not to mention dumping on the shops integrity who you are trying to do business with.
Shame on you and yes isnt karma a funny thing.
I hope this isnt too blunt for this forum and apologise for being so as I look forward to learning and hopefully contributing more useful topics in times to come.
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I had a look at some of these luare lures today and they dont look anything special. Then again, I havent seen the originals that they are copied off. But at a similar price to cuberas and skipjacks I would rather get the blackjack/heru ones.
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Luke or Brandon I believe this is an attack on me and my reputation and would like to leave this post here unedited. Thank you
I am sorry to have to make my first post on this forum which I have enjoyed and learnt so much from in this fashion, but there is more to this story which I feel readers should be made aware of.
I was in the tackle shop in question a few weeks ago now and there were a pile of simons rod blanks down the back of the shop. When I asked the guys there about them they informed me that simon had dropped them in to try and sell through the shop. Most of the blanks where all from america with a particular brand simon was promoting heavily as and I quote " AN EXACT COPY of the calstar blanks".
This is the biggest case of the pot calling the kettle black I have seen in a long time and not to mention dumping on the shops integrity who you are trying to do business with.
Shame on you and yes isnt karma a funny thing.
I hope this isnt too blunt for this forum and apologise for being so as I look forward to learning and hopefully contributing more useful topics in times to come.
First of all if you weren't at the shop when I was there how could know what I was promoting "HEAVILY".
I didn't say it was "AN EXACT COPY" of a Calstar blank. I said it was modelled off a Calstar blank and these particular models are almost and exact copy (some when trimmed from the tip/butt) of the said model/s (3 out off a blank range totalling almost 500 different blanks). Even the shop owner said they weren't exactly the same.
I showed them a 3 different blanks two of them that are close to a Calstar Graphiter GF800M only one has a faster action and the other a slower action. They wanted something that would be good for medium to heavy popping and that is what I recommended and for about 1/2 the price with a lifetime warranty they are pretty good (as they were looking for something that didnt cost hundreds).
I didn't bring them in to "Sell through the shop" as you say. I am a mate of there rodbuilder Darren or "Dazza" to his mates who works there who asked me about 2 or 3 weeks before to bring around a bunch of blanks that he could have a look at so I took around about 30 different blanks (Barra, Bream, Game, Saltwater ect) and left them there. They didn't even have any prices on them and they were taken there to show Darren not the owner although he did have a look and I said I was in a hurry and I would pick them up some other time. They were also left out the back of the shop in the storeroom so how were they selling them for me or left there for customers to see.
If you know so much you would also know that a Calstar blank is a direct "Copy" of a Californian Sabre Blank who were the first to make a range of blanks that have a E/Glass tip transitioning into a Graphite Mid and Butt section (that I know of).
I can tell you of a number of Blanks that Calstar make that are direct copies of Sabre (the GF410 is one of the first that springs to mind as it is a "EXACT copy of a Sabre Hot Rod Blank and I can tell you now there are a hell of a lot more at least 50% of the whole Calstar range is an "Exact" copy of the Sabres hell most even have the same part numbers). So far I can think of about 8 company's that make the same type of blank so who's copying who.
Another company in Australia sells Shikari blanks (now called ATC blanks) that have a larger range of the Calstar copy's (G Force) then all of these 3 manufacturers I showed them. The same company also made a copy of a Japanese Popping Rod (should they get there Karma as well) but somehow I am the bad one trying to make a living for my family selling what I distribute.
Composite Developments was the first to make a duel helix blank and how Graphite USA make them as well I suppose anyone that sells them should get there Karma too.
You say I was dumping on the integrity of the shop who sells the if anything I talked them up with words like and a quote.
"When someone says the name copy they straight away think that the copy is inferior but I can tell you now these copies are pretty good quality.
They come unrigged but they use heavy gauge stainless wire and swivels and although the paint jobs isn't the quality of the originals it is pretty good and will take quite a beating.
Go into Tackle World and check them out I can almost guarantee if you are keen on some heavy duty poppers for the price you will like what you see".
"Go into Tackle world and check them out you will like what you see" if that is dumping on someone I wish everyone did it to me and I didn't say what shop it was or where I just said Tackle World as most will have them and show me where in this entire thread or anywhere else I have ever dumped on the said shop. I can almost gaurantee I support them (Tackle World)a hell of a lot more then you (how many reels lures ect have you purchased from them)and I consider the owner and staff to be pretty good people and I deal with a lot of tackle shops so I know how hard it is in the tackle industry especially for the smaller independent retailers with all the big shoebox stores like BCF, Amart, Anaconda ect. One of there workers is a member of this forum and I am pretty sure he has read this (I know you are good mates with Rob so if he wanted to say anything why didnt he or the owner do it today)and I was in there at about 4.00 pm today and nothing was said to me. Retail is about supply and demand and if you didn't stock them you would be a idiot and wouldn't last to long in business as I can guarantee that the another tackleshop will sell them if you don't.
A lot of people don't have the disposable income that others do and a lot of the originals cost around $100 to $120 if you can get them. You said (sorry wrong Peter) that you were in there today and they didn't seam like anything special but at around 1/3 to 1/2 the price of the originals like I said they will sell well I purchased 2 just to see what they go like against the original Japanese ones I have, not that I have any time to use them.
If I did have any distain it would be towards the company Luars Lures (its not owned by Tackleworld Australia like I was told) but that is how the whole tackle business works Someone has a good idea and brings something out and then someone else try's to copy it. Do you think that one day in Japan 10 different people simultaneously had a brainwave to start up Boutique Jigging and Popping Tackle Company's and on the same day Fisherman, Carpenter, Seven Seas, Smith, Hots ect were started.
Like Aaron Concord said As for people who infringe on Copyright & design for max profit, may K A R M A get you!!!!!!!!!!
The only reason I started this thread was to hear what poeples thoughts are on this subject as you see it all the time and let them know if they wanted to see what they looked like what shops stock them (Tackle World).
Travis said I am just the same as the copiers because I am getting some blanks made in Japan to build Popping and Jigging rods here in Australia but when someone else does it, its the way to go
http://www.gtpopping.com/forum/index.php?topic=284.msg3081#msg3081
Peter just like Travis did, you went and shot off at the mouth without knowing well anything about anything really. You got the whole story ballsed up. You said
"I look forward to learning and hopefully contributing more useful topics in times to come". Lets just hope you research what your saying next time instead of trying to blacken someone's reputation with a whole lot of Crap (Hear say). Libel and Slander
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
I dont know if you were put up to post this or you just thought you would do it your self as I see you only joined 2 days ago but you have deffinetly got everything wrong and I dont know if you were told that or what but I stand by everything I have put in this post and if you or anyone else don't agree you know where I work you can come around and we can talk it out. Its easy to say things when you are behind a computer!!!!
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Okay guys - let's call it a day on this thread.
We take great pride in the fact that this site has been free of the invective which is so common on other sites. We are also proud of the fact that the number of times that moderator intervention has been required since this forum commenced is absolutely minimal. The reason for this is primarily because of the quality of the members that we have. We would like to keep it this way.
Simon - neither Luke or myself are in a position to establish the veracity or your's or Peter's claims. On that basis, we will let your response stand but we request that you both discontinue this topic.
Finally, if you wish to advertise your products, can I request that you please PM Luke to discuss this.
thank you for your cooperation.
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Done With This Thread
Thank you Brandon I appreciate that
I think the rodbuilder or shop owner could tell you but I am darn sure his version isn't different to mine. I don't know if the owner will but I will bring it to his attention and the rodbuilder is fishing in the NT for the next few weeks.
I like the anonymity a handle (user name) gives you and I signed up with that first. I never wanted to even say where I worked in the tackle industry but someone implied I didn't so I told them who I was. Free advertising is not my intention and I am happy to do something in the near future (about 2 months I hope as some are being tested as we speak on a boat out of Cairns/Cooktown) when I have some rods that pertain to this websites focus (i.e.: Popping and Jigging).
The problem is that it happened like this (he said she said) and it is obvious that his posts intention was to make me look bad (typical Real Estate Agent)and I don't know if it has been done off his back or he has been told this. If I have dumped on this said shop I would like to see in this thread or any other where I have.
I just joined this website as I like jigging and popping as thought I could share some info with others as I have "some" knowledge on the subject as well as extensive knowage on blank and rod design and know several people in the Japan tackle industry as well that I speak with regularly that know most of the ins and outs of it. I was going to post some pictures of the poppers and see what people thought about them quality wise and if I thought so badly about them I wouldn't have purchased the 2 today to put up against the originals. Anyway I am done with this thread if you would like to see some pictures of them please PM me.