midknot advice(stickbait advice too!)

[Sam Beeby]

g'day all,

New to the site and my first post. I actually exclusively fish for YT Kings on northern sydneys ledges with (and i wince as I write it in the company of so many popper freaks) predominately raiders, but also popppers.  I've recently switched from using traditional high speed spin overhead gear to eggbeater gear. I actually hate casting with eggbeaters, but i just couldn't see any other way  to lure fish with shorter rods for more leverage, yet with big breaking strains, unless i made the switch.

But now i'm running into trouble with leaders etc. Before my leader was outside the tip and i still had miles of mono behind it to depend on if i started getting reefed - and usually had enough time to free spool if i had to. With the eggy though (since free spooling is out) I'm worried that my 100lb ande leader is too short and that the 50lb fins will let go the first instant it touches rock.

An albright between double and leader rattles the guides sickeningly, so i need a slimer knot. I cant go twisted leader with loop-loop cos alot of the luring i do is sub surface and i think that the whyly kings will easily spot that leader setup under water. I have been using doubled braid connected to 24 to 37kg mainline type mono (as a type of wind on that gets in and out of the guides fine) and then to 100lb ande leader still outside the tip.  After reading your posts, I'm starting to see that a midknot connection might be the way to go, but I have a few questions

 My outfit is a Saltiga Dorado 80TN 30-100g lures (but im more comfortable casting 60-125g on it) + a Saltiga Surf 4500. I also have a 4500 Blast but find that the Surf seriously outcasts it with far less wind knots.   I cast 85 and 125g raiders, and 60 - 125g pencil poppers.

1. If I start using Midknots, what would be the max Lb leader I could expect to rattle through the guides without dramas, and negotiate the bail roller?

2. The reason I hadn't used midknots initially was the amount of negative feedback regarding its knot strength. What can I do to counter this? Are certain braids more "bitey" ? Is a soft leader like Ande pink better for midknot tying because it allows the braid to bite more, or should i shy away from soft leaders because excessive bite compromises the knot? If leader type is important to the knot, what is a good off the shelf mono leader you guys suggest?

3. when looking it up I see PR knot, FR knot, YGK knot and Mid Knot. Are all these one of the same? Can anyone link me to a good pictorial on how to tie it?

4. And off the subject a bit, after years of persisting with them , I've  found that fast surface poppers and slow chuggers seem to draw Kings that on average just frustratingly nudge and look. And retrieving raiders all day at breakneck speed is killing me. I'm thinking of making a complete switch to neutral or slow sinking stickbaits. What would your suggestions be for stickbaits that fit this brief that are readily available within australia, that cast  well, and would suit my rod.

Hey if I lived in the west I'd be targeting GT's with big cup faced poppers. But kings are the closest thing I've got and your GT advice definitely strikes a chord with kingy lurers off the rocks here. Thanks very much for any advice.

Sam

[David Sharples]

Maybe try making a wind on leader by using a heavy dacron loop on the end of the mono. Rough up the last 30cm of leader with sandpaper, create a loop by splicing the dacron back on itself, thread the mono all the way up to the end of the loop and use three or four very tight nail knots with 80lb braid then sealed with superglue.

I've not tried this but have been thinking about a way to use mono leaders with braid and avoiding the Albright and the clunk through the guides. Will try it when I can get my act together!

Let me know if you can get it to work, or if it fails miserably! 

[Ben Keller]

http://www.jigsdirect.com/eMerchantPro/pc/fishing_knots.asp

Heres the PR knot. Longer than the modknot, but more reliable and way way easier/faster to tie properly.

The only difference I do when tying this knot is to keep flames away from the braid. I dont bother balling up the mono, easier through the guide as an added bonus.

Only problem is it is longer than the midknot. I am going to try a bit of crude strength testing with it to see how short I can make the knot and still retain max breaking strain.

Cheers
Ben

[Brandon Khoo]

I would not necessarily rule out twisted leaders as you could simply crimp on two to three feet of fluorocarbon leader to the end of the twistie (the crimp of course has to be outside the last guide).

A well-tied FG or midknot is fine. Noone can guarantee they will not slip but if you use leader like Fisherman or YGK which is relatively soft, it will bite into it where slipppage becomes highly unlikely. Huge GTs have been landed on these knots so they work. I prefer twisties myself but I have seen enough failures here when people make mistakes to know these ar not foolproof either. Whatever method you use, you've got to tie it properly. I don't doubt that where FGs and midknots have failed that the person tying the knot has to take the large share of culpability.

A PR knot is a very good knot and certainly I would recommend this over a FG or a midknot for most people. Using a PR bobbin, you really get some bite into the leader and for the very large majority of anglers, this is a better knot than the FG or midknot, simply because it is easier to tie with the bobbin. I've tested this knot quite extensively of late and it's solid.

I would have no concerns about the length of the knot or its casting ability. I've seen 200lb leaders used for this. If you're interested enough in this and how a knot is tied, I'm happy to show you a bobbin and how it works if you want to drop around some time. I'm in Sydney too.

[Luke Wyrsta]

Most people would know that i'm not a fan of the PR knot. The Midknot is probably the only knot that i would keep using if i had to but as Brandon mentioned there are a few short-comings - particularly in angler error. Shock load problems only complicate the situation too.

If you are interested in a wind-on type leader, then check this post out: Ultimate Interchangeable Single Leader System Search (Part 2)

To answer your questions specifically:

1. I have always associated the Midknot with shorter leaders - at least for my preferences, say 2 - 2.5 metres. I can't really see any issue with using a longer leader as long as your rod guides can handle it (of course casting distance will be reduced). I'm not sure about the size of the bail roller on the reels you mention but I can't really see a problem with the leaders passing through the roller for the leaders you would be using off the rocks.

2. Practice, Practice, Practice! I haven't used Ande Pink but might i suggest trying YGK Galis Castman Absorber Nylon Leader for something that is very accessible and value for money. As for other brands, Fisherman/Varivas shock leaders are my favourite but are ordered from Japan. Finns and braids like TufLine XP are fine to tie the Midknot with - just practice. I think that the knot being compromised by excessive bite is the last of your worries but means you are tying them well!

3. All different but similiar in some respects - links already posted.

4. Small BlackJack/Nomad Wahoo's and Uluas with some terminals/hooks heavy enough to get them to sink (I haven't tried to make them sink so not sure if that will work). Sinking Runbohs, Shimano Ocea Stickbaits.

[Sam Beeby]

Thanks heaps for that advice guys. Yeah, i'll get my hands on a bobbin (are they available from sewing shops?) and try to suss the PR knot.  Just curious what you guys think of the GT knot.

1. Is it only for single strand braid to leader or can it be tied with a double?
2. Is it designed to fit thru the guides (if so how big can you go on the leader before you would have dramas on a rod like a saltiga 80TN?), or is it an outside the tip knot?
3. If it is an outside the tip knot, does it beat an Albright tied with doubled braid?

thanks
Sam

[Brandon Khoo]

I don't feel experienced or qualified enough to comment on the GT knot, not having used it myself.
For a PR bobbin, it is not quite the same as a sewing bobbin. The only person I know who sells one in this part of the wrold is Chris Wong in New Zealand. His site is www.jigsdirect.com

[Ben Keller]

Hi Sam,
While Im not a popping guru like some of these dudes, I have experimented with quite a few of these knots for a little casting but mainly jigging.

I managed to tie somthing that looked like a GT knot with a double once but that wasa  bit of a shambles, and needless to say I havnt tried again. The biggest problem with it is the GT knot is that the mono is knotted, making it realy bulky for casting. Its cooler than an albright but couldnt tell you if its stronger, definatly slimmer though.

The bobbins for the PR knot are weighted and made out of block aluminum, therefore are heavier than the sewing shop ones. They are about 40 bucks kiwi from www.jigsdirect.co.nz (no affiliation ;P), as far as gear is concerned, its probably the best 40 bucks ive spent. Note: Brandon - you beat me to it!

Problem with bimini and then another knot combo, is its still 2 knots, and it takes ages to tie because of it. The plus side is a short Bimini and a GT knot/albright is a piece of cake to tie consistently on a rocking boat, something I would absolutely love to see someone doing with an FG and getting it consistent. Same goes for a PR, way faster than a bimini something else combo.

Cheers
Ben

[Brandon Khoo]

no gurus here, Ben!

Sam - you're much better off practising and practising until you become an expert in a couple of knots than knowing how to tie twenty complex knots but only being average at all of them. For big fish on heavy gear, your knots will make or break you. You must be able to tie them and have absolute confidence they will hold together.

If you're looking for a slim casting knot, we've covered the main methods - bimimi/twisted leader or single strand braid to single stand mono via a FG, midknot or PR. Just remember though - I can't imagine trying to tie a PR knot in a rocking boat!

If the kingies are very shy, you are probably better of using a bite segment of fluorocarbon and if you have to do this, i don't think there is much difference between using a PR or a twisted leader

[Hal Harvey]

I started reading this thinking, 'this guy should be using a twisted leader with a metre or so of fluorocarbon crimped on and be chucking slow-sinking Dorado Sliders and Ocea Pencils'... and I'm still thinking that, though if the terrain isn't too horrible you could do with a few Ulua 60s and Wahoo 80s too.

I'm no fan of GT knots or lots of other Japan-originated knots for popperchucking. They're just unreliable. Bobbins work but I still reckon twisted leaders are better. So with a twisted, you can have however-many leaders already made up and complete from end to end, ready to attach the lure. All you need to do is tie a Bimini and loop it on - two minutes total, max.

Stickbaits are brilliant for fish like wise kings that aren't usually aggro enough to be readily crashing bloopers. You can work them nice and slow too, ideal for a reel like a Surf 4500.

And yes, your 50lb Fins will let go the instant it touches rock. You can do twisted leaders in whatever thickness Absorber suits your needs, and a length of fluorocarbon is an affordable and effective way to remove the visibility problem.

[Cam Foley]

I have made some twisted leaders and they are the way to go , i could not belive how well they go through the guides.As for the PR knot i still recon i can tie a bimini quicker than a PR knot ,not that i am that good at the PR knot but have the bimini thing down.
Hey Ben we should have a race ,Team Bimini and twisted leader or wind on Vs Team PR knot, nar i think you would do me in.

[Brandon Khoo]

There is absolutely no comparison in the time in takes to be back fishing - unless you have the luxury of numerous spare spool where the leaders are already attached and all you do is change spools.

I can tie a bimimi in a rocking boat but I could not even contemplate how I would do a PR knot with the bobbin in the same situation! The other funny thing is I have had the bobbin come flying off before when I have been spinning it hard (I didn't know how to use it properly then). How pissed off would you be if it went over the side of the boat! 

[Ben Keller]

The secret to the bobbin is to glue to weight in the middle, its a piece of cake.

I have made some twisted leaders and they are the way to go , i could not belive how well they go through the guides.As for the PR knot i still recon i can tie a bimini quicker than a PR knot ,not that i am that good at the PR knot but have the bimini thing down.
Hey Ben we should have a race ,Team Bimini and twisted leader or wind on Vs Team PR knot, nar i think you would do me in.

Anytime  ............Na, bimini/twisty is faster than a PR.

BTW I like twistys best.

BUUUUUTT, PR is faster than a bimini/albright combo

[Andrew Poulos]

Sam,

I have a similar outfit to yours (doardo 80TN) and also fish for the kings. The only connection I use is a bimini in the braid mainline and then a twisted leader. The connection flows perfectly through the guides. I attach fluro to the end, but have a swivel instead (havent mastered crimping yet). I have tried the other styles of knots but only when I have made them at home. I dont have as much confidence in them as the twisted setup. And if you have spare twisted leaders, easier to do on the rocks. All you need is a biminit and loop loop connection and you're back in the game.

Andrew

[Brandon Khoo]

I can definitely do a bimimi/albright combo faster than a PR knot. The PR is easy until you get to the fussy bit of tying the half hitches and then burning the tip and then that takes me ages.

The secret to the bobbin is to glue to weight in the middle, its a piece of cake.

I have made some twisted leaders and they are the way to go , i could not belive how well they go through the guides.As for the PR knot i still recon i can tie a bimini quicker than a PR knot ,not that i am that good at the PR knot but have the bimini thing down.
Hey Ben we should have a race ,Team Bimini and twisted leader or wind on Vs Team PR knot, nar i think you would do me in.

Anytime  ............Na, bimini/twisty is faster than a PR.

BTW I like twistys best.

BUUUUUTT, PR is faster than a bimini/albright combo